Bb/F/G/Eb bass trombones

[spencercarran]

The F/Gb/D tuning appears nearly universal among independent basses, with F/G/Eb mostly being a custom option. What are the stock bass trombones that have a second valve in G?

The models I know of are:
Convertible second tuning slide - Benge 290 (discontinued), Holton 181, Courtois 551
Swappable second tuning slide - Yamaha 613 (discontinued), Bach 50B3/50B3O (but have to buy G slide separately), Edwards B454-VE
Second valve in G by default - None?

Am I missing some others? Of course there are also a handful of trombones available (from Shires eg) with Bollinger flat G tuning.

It seems like the F/G/Eb tuning offers a lot of options in technical passages, especially by providing options to keep the slide within the bell across almost the whole range, with the main downside being that B1 is still pretty far down the slide. Is there a reason why F/Gb/D has become so dominant, almost to the exclusion of F/G/Eb from the market?

[Hobart]

The Olds S-24G and P-24G had a neat feature where swapping the two valve slides would change it to Bb/F/G/Eb.
I also want to say there was a Besson bass trombone, the 943, that had that tuning system but I'm not sure when they switched it to conventional tuning.
The Conn 83H also has Bb/F/G/Eb tuning, although it isn't well regarded otherwise.

Not sure why they would get rid of the F/G/Eb tuning though. My best guesses would be to bring Bb closer, or in my experience with switching the Holton to Eb tuning, the F, G, and Eb are even more of a compromise in terms of intonation than the F, Gb, and D.

[FOSSIL]

Why not G/Eb ? More tube looks more macho ....D is more tube. Thayer valves look 'better' in D.
I played D for over 20 years...now back on Eb....I look at D tuning and think 'why did I do that?'.
Went back when I used Eb for Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and realised it suits me better.
D tuning puts low C in normal 4th position...surely that could not be a reason ?

Chris

[BGuttman]

If you look at the history of the double valve bass you can probably understand a bit better.

Originally the 2nd valve was a "quick E pull" used to get low B or sometimes a closer in low C. Horns were all dependent, so using the 2nd valve alone was not an option.

Someone discovered that a longer tuning slide for the 2nd valve (to Eb) made low C and low B easier to get to. Still dependent, so no 2nd valve alone.

Then the 2nd valve in D came along and the convenience of having low C where you played tenor G (4th position) was convenient since C and G usually came together. Still dependent.

When independent valves were first introduced the dominant dependent was Bb/F/D so that was the default Indie (2nd valve in Gb). At this time bass trombonists began experimenting with using only the 2nd valve for some notes. Some had 2nd valve slides made to G rather than Gb. But the Bb/F/D ad taken over and once you are used to that it's inertia to use something else.

There have been some advocates of using the single valve in G rather than F. In fact, you can shuffle the two slides of a King F-attachment to make it in G (you have to remove the tuning slide brace). I'm not going to go into whether F or G (or even E -- that was an option 100 years ago) is the best tuning for a valve. That's up to you.

[spencercarran]

@Hobart - thanks, I didn't know about those models! Very cool, but also all discontinued... Having swappable first/second slides to change tuning systems seems even more efficient than the Benge290/Holton181 style removable midsection.

@Chris - back when I used to study with Pete Norton, he had both of his independent basses set up with the second valve alone in D. Definitely a lot of tube there, and given that they were also oversized valves (Thayers on one, CL2000 on the other), the weight was quite noticeable. I believe he's switched to something a little more conventional in the intervening years, but I haven't been back to Ohio much.

I play dependent bass currently, and in that context it's clear enough why you want the combination in D - low B is easy to reach. When you move that same length of pipe to independent systems though, the second valve feels mostly redundant, since F2 is the only note that's dramatically more convenient on second valve than first.

[Kevbach33]

I also want to say there was a Besson bass trombone, the 943, that had that tuning system but I'm not sure when they switched it to conventional tuning.

Yes, I own one, and it's switchable. As I recall, all 943 basses, even those with the later Hagmann valves, were convertible to G/Eb tuning.

It's strange that the tuning isn't more common, as a second valve in G has a very open feel. I shudder at just how open the Edwards B454-VE (with its already open axial flow valve) may be...

Why G/Eb? The above openness, for one; it's very useful in various passages that may otherwise be clumsy in dependent or independent Gb/D; and there's something... "clean" about the look of that short tubing, especially with rotors or Hagmann valves. To each their own, though.

[whitbey]

Year before dependent valves were liked or preferred, I bought a Bb/F/E dependent. The extension tubes to make it Eb or D were only $20. So I bought 2 sets of tunes and got C. C made so much sense as C's were in first position, B's were in a long 2nd and Bb's were in a long 3rd.
Worked so well I had a new slide made in a larger bore. That larger bore 2nd valve blew more open then the dependent horns I tried. I did not understand at the time that more conical tubing in the neck pipe was a good thing too.
So now my Bach bass horn I bought in the 70's made in the 60's has this big beautiful sound that carries, cuts or sings soft and rich. A lot of luck in how it happened. The horn is supposed to be a Mt Vernon, The larger tubing was a wild idea that worked and even thought the horn is old it is holding up just fine for a double horn.
I have tried some nice new indi horns. I can find C and B, but not without thinking more about the slide position the playing.
Moral of story, bore size may have more to do then the wrap.

[Burgerbob]

Maybe I'll go G/Eb someday, but for me it puts the low stuff a bit too far out for my liking.

[FOSSIL]

If you look at the history of the double valve bass you can probably understand a bit better.

Originally the 2nd valve was a "quick E pull" used to get low B or sometimes a closer in low C. Horns were all dependent, so using the 2nd valve alone was not an option.

Someone discovered that a longer tuning slide for the 2nd valve (to Eb) made low C and low B easier to get to. Still dependent, so no 2nd valve alone.

Then the 2nd valve in D came along and the convenience of having low C where you played tenor G (4th position) was convenient since C and G usually came together. Still dependent.

When independent valves were first introduced the dominant dependent was Bb/F/D so that was the default Indie (2nd valve in Gb). At this time bass trombonists began experimenting with using only the 2nd valve for some notes. Some had 2nd valve slides made to G rather than Gb. But the Bb/F/D ad taken over and once you are used to that it's inertia to use something else.

There have been some advocates of using the single valve in G rather than F. In fact, you can shuffle the two slides of a King F-attachment to make it in G (you have to remove the tuning slide brace). I'm not going to go into whether F or G (or even E -- that was an option 100 years ago) is the best tuning for a valve. That's up to you.

That's not really a history Bruce, more another extended version of my cynical take.
D made C and B easier to get to ? Okay, it also made them stuffier.
'When independent valves first came in the Bb/F/D was dominant' Quite simply, NO. the first production independent was the Olds followed by the B&H Sovereign...both initially set up for Bb/F/G/Eb.
There is no point in having an independent valve setup if you don't use the second valve alone, so everybody that bought one should've experimented...I know I did.
We also experimented with Bb/F/Eb ish/C and Bb/F/D/B....adding weight in serious amounts to already heavy instruments. It took many years for Bb/F/D to become the dominant tuning...Yamaha kept making Eb second valves for years, and they sold a lot of trombones.
Holton were early D adopters but Bach were not. The scene was always confused and to be honest, it still is. D put a low C in standard 4th position...I reckon that was a big factor...many weekend players wanted life as simple as possible.
Today, many players make their own tuning choices....sometimes for good reasons. Sometimes I need Bb/F/Gb/D...usually to cover glisses...other times Bb/F/G/Eb bales me out. It's a mess, but then life's a bit of a mess....

Chris

[LeTromboniste]

Yamaha kept making Eb second valves for years, and they sold a lot of trombones.

I literally just ordered an 80s Yamaha 612. Bb/F/Eb

[spencercarran]

Yamaha kept making Eb second valves for years, and they sold a lot of trombones.

I literally just ordered an 80s Yamaha 612. Bb/F/Eb

But those are dependent, right? Very different story from independent setup where G alone can be handy.

[sirisobhakya]

I literally just ordered an 80s Yamaha 612. Bb/F/Eb

But those are dependent, right? Very different story from independent setup where G alone can be handy.

YBL-613 and 613H have Bb/F/G/Eb default tuning with conversion to Gb/D.

[brtnats]

@Chris

That’s why I’ve never understood why the option to convert the second valve never really caught on. Sometimes Gb/D is handy, but more often than not I’ve preferred G/Eb. I can only think of a few independent basses that have offered both tunings as a standard option, and those are the ones from which I learned G/Eb.

I don’t think your take is so cynical; manufacturers standardized Gb/D because that’s what their consultants were using. Composers began to assume Gb/D because that’s what the orchestration guides started to assume. I’m not sure that enough independent players have had the *option* of playing G/Eb for the community of musicians to actually agree on a tuning.

[hyperbolica]

When I first started playing double valves, I was a proponent of Eb tuning on independents, mainly because I liked the G valve. I've owned multiples of each tuning, both dependent and independent. When I got my Kanstul Bb/F/Gb/D, I asked the factory if they could give me G and Gb options for the second valve, and they said no. The G tuning on the second valve is great when you have an independent horn, but I have to say that I prefer the D combined. I do use Gb and Db in flat first fairly often. In the end, I'd pick the horn that plays best, but I could live with either G or Gb second valve.

[JohnL]

That's not really a history Bruce, more another extended version of my cynical take.
D made C and B easier to get to ? Okay, it also made them stuffier.
'When independent valves first came in the Bb/F/D was dominant' Quite simply, NO. the first production independent was the Olds followed by the B&H Sovereign...both initially set up for Bb/F/G/Eb.

I think what Bruce meant was that before the S-24G came out, the dominant tuning was Bb/F/D (though I'd add that Bb/F//E wasn't uncommon).

There is no point in having an independent valve setup if you don't use the second valve alone, so everybody that bought one should've experimented...I know I did.
We also experimented with Bb/F/Eb ish/C and Bb/F/D/B....adding weight in serious amounts to already heavy instruments. It took many years for Bb/F/D to become the dominant tuning...Yamaha kept making Eb second valves for years, and they sold a lot of trombones.
Holton were early D adopters but Bach were not. The scene was always confused and to be honest, it still is. D put a low C in standard 4th position...I reckon that was a big factor...many weekend players wanted life as simple as possible.
Today, many players make their own tuning choices....sometimes for good reasons. Sometimes I need Bb/F/Gb/D...usually to cover glisses...other times Bb/F/G/Eb bales me out. It's a mess, but then life's a bit of a mess....

Chris

I've always felt one reason the Bb/F/Gb/D became the dominant indy tuning was that it aligned with the dominant dependent tuning (Bb/F/D). If someone is moving from dependent to independent, having the same tuning eases the transition. You can pretty much just pick up the horn and go - particularly if your dependent had split triggers (best remember that you can't "preload" the second valve, but I don't know how many people do that very often, if at all).

The other thing is that a lot of people I meet (moving in a very different strata that Fossil, I will freely admit) who own indy horns just don't use them as such. Usually they are people who started on dependent and moved to independent later on and just never explored the potential of their new instrument. Some of them started on indy horns but had teachers who were exclusively dependent players, so that's how they were taught (disappointing to say the least, but there are teachers like that out there).

[spencercarran]

When I got my Kanstul Bb/F/Gb/D, I asked the factory if they could give me G and Gb options for the second valve, and they said no.

I would assume that unless the second valve tubing has a particularly difficult wrap, a decent tech could cut the slide a bit shorter without changing much about the horn. Unsure how much that would typically cost. Still a bit odd that the extant options for F/G/Eb are basically limited to Courtois 551, Holton 181, or custom/special order.

You can pretty much just pick up the horn and go - particularly if your dependent had split triggers (best remember that you can't "preload" the second valve, but I don't know how many people do that very often, if at all).

I preload my dependent second valve all the time. Partly because my split trigger conversion job kept the original first trigger mechanism and the ergonomics are still a bit wonky - don't trust my ability to move both triggers in perfect unison.

The other thing is that a lot of people I meet (moving in a very different strata that Fossil, I will freely admit) who own indy horns just don't use them as such. Usually they are people who started on dependent and moved to independent later on and just never explored the potential of their new instrument. Some of them started on indy horns but had teachers who were exclusively dependent players, so that's how they were taught (disappointing to say the least, but there are teachers like that out there).

I'd agree with this in my experience as well, which granted is mostly amateur musicians and non-conservatory music majors. I've seen lots of people with indy setups because that's what their teacher said they were supposed to buy who never use the second valve alone. AFAICT this is even true of (some) people who never played on dependent bass and whose teachers also play independent.

[hyperbolica]

When I got my Kanstul Bb/F/Gb/D, I asked the factory if they could give me G and Gb options for the second valve, and they said no.

I would assume that unless the second valve tubing has a particularly difficult wrap, a decent tech could cut the slide a bit shorter without changing much about the horn. Unsure how much that would typically cost. Still a bit odd that the extant options for F/G/Eb are basically limited to Courtois 551, Holton 181, or custom/special order.

Kanstul said they couldn't give a reasonable tuning adjustment with that big of a cut. Horns with large radius open wraps are harder to cut down. To do it comfortably, you'd want to make a smaller radius tuning crook, which would give you more straight tube to make into tuning slides.

[FOSSIL]

Sorry guys, I just don't buy into the idea that D was the dominant dependent tuning when independents came in. Holton offered Eb and D slides on early 180s....Bach were very slow to add options to their rather flat E valve and Conn had the E valve with optional D slide....perhaps we can blame Conn for the D takeover. I think the idea that low C in regular 4th was the clincher is probably true.... outside of the profession there were few Cs to be played and even fewer Bs and easiest is always best.
The scene is still totally confused with second valves in Eb, flat Eb, D, C and B when used in combination. Sometimes I have to plug in different tube to match a student so I can see where they are coming from. I doubt it will ever settle and it must be a nightmare for composers trying to write glisses. All this for TWO notes....do I hear George Roberts chuckle in his grave ?

Chris

[spencercarran]

@hyperbolica good point, that does limit the ability to cut second valve. I would bet most Thayer valve wraps are impractical to cut down, but standard-ish open wraps like on Conn 62H, 112H, Yamaha 830, etc should be workable.

@Fossil well that's interesting, now I'm thinking what sort of tunings are available on dependents still in production... Bach 50B2 and variants still come in Bb/F/E afaik, and the Yamaha 620 comes with Eb and D slides. Everything else I can think of offhand uses Bb/F/D, usually as the only option, even though that wasn't as universal in the early days of double valve bass.

[FOSSIL]

I said that it's only two notes, but of course it's much more than that. I was joking....
The original add on valves that sat on the F attachment did indeed draw the mind to a simple means of playing two notes, but the introduction of the independent brought with it a myriad of possibilities for extended technique. The danger for me has always been the reduction in slide use when valves are exploited....the trombone is a unique, slide enabled instrument (let's not go to the valve trombone discussion) and extensive valve use takes away from this character.
That still leaves a lot of scope for valve use in a novel manner.
Chris

[RoscoTrombone]

The F/Gb/D tuning appears nearly universal among independent basses, with F/G/Eb mostly being a custom option. What are the stock bass trombones that have a second valve in G?

The models I know of are:
Convertible second tuning slide - Benge 290 (discontinued), Holton 181, Courtois 551
Swappable second tuning slide - Yamaha 613 (discontinued), Bach 50B3/50B3O (but have to buy G slide separately), Edwards B454-VE
Second valve in G by default - None?

Am I missing some others? Of course there are also a handful of trombones available (from Shires eg) with Bollinger flat G tuning.

It seems like the F/G/Eb tuning offers a lot of options in technical passages, especially by providing options to keep the slide within the bell across almost the whole range, with the main downside being that B1 is still pretty far down the slide. Is there a reason why F/Gb/D has become so dominant, almost to the exclusion of F/G/Eb from the market?

My B&S came with two 2nd valve tuning slides. The shorter G one was in the instrument when I got it and with such German precision engineering they designed the case so if you have the bigger valve in it doesn't fit...maybe they are trying to drop a hint!

The case is being stored at my mum's so the next time I'm allowed to go inside her house I think I'll grab it and give it a shot as I've always played the "standard" configuration.

[Kbiggs]

Edwards advertises their 454VE bass with several options: Bb/F/G/Eb tuning, Bb/F/Gb/D tuning, and the “Bollinger” tuning of Bb/F/flat G/Eb. And Shires’ Bollinger model offers the flat G tuning. Blair Bollinger even put out a scale book for independent bass titled, “You’ve got two valves—use both!”

@JohnL and spencercarran: I know you’re not advocating this, but... rant on...

I’ve never understood players (especially teachers) who use the second independent valve only when they are using the first valve, that is, essentially as a dependent valve. Independent valves, regardless of tuning, allow for a large number of alternate valve and slide positions, which require practice to use. It can be hard to devote the time necessary to develop fluency in the valve register when faced with multiple ways to play a passage (especially for amateur musicians and students who are not music majors). But the use of alternate positions has always been a part of playing and teaching the trombone.

Alternate positions, especially with an instrument as ungainly as the bass trombone, are the musician’s friend. Why else would we choose to devote hours to playing Bordogni, Conconi, etc. vocalises if not to show off our best legato? Again, like Blair Bollinger said, “You’ve got two valves—use both!”

[spencercarran]

@Kbiggs 100% agreed, I've always been confused at people who have more options to help make technical passages easier and just... don't use them.

Granted when I was on an indy bass (the Benge, which even had multiple tuning options!) I never experimented with the second valve much, but I knew I was coming back to dependent bass world soon and didn't want to become reliant on something that I wasn't going to keep.

[JohnL]

Sometimes I have to plug in different tube to match a student so I can see where they are coming from.

and we (or at least I, and I would hope everyone else) appreciate that you go that extra mile for your students. Would that every bass trombone teacher did.

Holton offered Eb and D slides on early 180s....Bach were very slow to add options to their rather flat E valve and Conn had the E valve with optional D slide....perhaps we can blame Conn for the D takeover.

I never could figure out why that took so long - or why King even bothered with a flat-E when they introduced the Duo-Gravis. We can debate the relative merits of G, flat-G, Gb or longer on a independent, but I fail to see any benefit the E/flat-E provides over D on a dependent other than weighing a less. Was it just inertia?

The danger for me has always been the reduction in slide use when valves are exploited....the trombone is a unique, slide enabled instrument (let's not go to the valve trombone discussion) and extensive valve use takes away from this character.

I've always advocated using the valves in a way that maximizes short handslide movements (1-3 positions) while minimizing longer movements (4-6 positions). The basic concert Bb scale is an excellent example (I know you already know all of this, Chris - I'm putting it out as part of the general discussion).

On an open horn, it's 1-6-4-3-1-4-2-1.

With an f-attachment, it can be played
1-(V)1-4-3-1-4-2-1
so other than adjusting for tuning, the first two notes are in the same position - and you have to move three positions (1st to 4th) between the second and third notes.

On an independent, you can play it:
1-(V2)2-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/Gb/D)
1-(V2)2.5-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/bG/bEb)
1-(V2)3-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/G/Eb) - resisting the temptation to play the third line D and the fourth space G in (V2)1.
You're not moving the slide any more or less than you would with an f-attachment, but you've transferred some of the slide movement that was in the second interval to the first, so you're now moving the slide for every interval of the scale. At least for me, this is easier to execute smooth this way than playing the C in 6th or (V1)1.

[FOSSIL]

Or, with Bb/F/G/Eb, you can play Bb major with the slide in 1st position .....worked that out in 1974

Chris

[JohnL]

Or, with Bb/F/G/Eb, you can play Bb major with the slide in 1st position .....worked that out in 1974

Chris

Like I said - resisting tempation...

[FOSSIL]

Try the 5/8 passage in Petrushka all on the valves...wrong...but killer

Chris

[Jimprindle]

Or, with Bb/F/G/Eb, you can play Bb major with the slide in 1st position .....worked that out in 1974

Chris

I figured that out as well, probably the same year on my Minickized Conn 72H B/F/G/Eb: you can do two octave Bb scales in 1st position with the valves. Showed that to a tuba player and he just said, “Stupid Trombone Trick “

Another “STT” is to lip gliss the upper octave Bb scale 1–3-4-#6-6-6-6-#7 moving the slide (no valves) up and down 1st to 7th really fast

[Dennis]

I've always advocated using the valves in a way that maximizes short handslide movements (1-3 positions) while minimizing longer movements (4-6 positions). The basic concert Bb scale is an excellent example (I know you already know all of this, Chris - I'm putting it out as part of the general discussion).

On an open horn, it's 1-6-4-3-1-4-2-1.

With an f-attachment, it can be played
1-(V)1-4-3-1-4-2-1
so other than adjusting for tuning, the first two notes are in the same position - and you have to move three positions (1st to 4th) between the second and third notes.

On an independent, you can play it:
1-(V2)2-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/Gb/D)
1-(V2)2.5-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/bG/bEb)
1-(V2)3-4-3-1-2-1 (Bb/F/G/Eb) - resisting the temptation to play the third line D and the fourth space G in (V2)1.
You're not moving the slide any more or less than you would with an f-attachment, but you've transferred some of the slide movement that was in the second interval to the first, so you're now moving the slide for every interval of the scale. At least for me, this is easier to execute smooth this way than playing the C in 6th or (V1)1.

Or with an F attachment V3-6-4-3-1-4-2-1

Or with an in-line Bb/F/Gb/D (T for thumb, F for Finger) T3-F2-4-3-F2-4-2-1: mostly ~1 position shifts with one 2 position shift.

[Finetales]

Players preferring G and D are the whole reason we had that wonderfully absurd triple dependent bass thread on the old forum.

There is one additional advantage to Gb/D, which is that you can play pedal Bb in 7th with both triggers (not technically a pedal when played that way, but you know what I mean). Doesn't seem like something that would be very useful on paper, but it's come in handy a lot for me playing parts that quickly alternate between low B and Bb.

[FOSSIL]

Players preferring G and D are the whole reason we had that wonderfully absurd triple dependent bass thread on the old forum.

There is one additional advantage to Gb/D, which is that you can play pedal Bb in 7th with both triggers (not technically a pedal when played that way, but you know what I mean). Doesn't seem like something that would be very useful on paper, but it's come in handy a lot for me playing parts that quickly alternate between low B and Bb.

Put your second valve in Eb with combo to C and live the dream....pedals everywhere....

Chris

[Finetales]

Players preferring G and D are the whole reason we had that wonderfully absurd triple dependent bass thread on the old forum.

There is one additional advantage to Gb/D, which is that you can play pedal Bb in 7th with both triggers (not technically a pedal when played that way, but you know what I mean). Doesn't seem like something that would be very useful on paper, but it's come in handy a lot for me playing parts that quickly alternate between low B and Bb.

Put your second valve in Eb with combo to C and live the dream....pedals everywhere....

Chris

I would certainly love to try that!

[whitbey]

Players preferring G and D are the whole reason we had that wonderfully absurd triple dependent bass thread on the old forum.

There is one additional advantage to Gb/D, which is that you can play pedal Bb in 7th with both triggers (not technically a pedal when played that way, but you know what I mean). Doesn't seem like something that would be very useful on paper, but it's come in handy a lot for me playing parts that quickly alternate between low B and Bb.

Put your second valve in Eb with combo to C and live the dream....pedals everywhere....

Chris

My F and C gives me down to double Ab. Double Bb is in a long 3rd. This is real good for if something is going from a low C to peddle Bb, I can use the Bb in 3rd and the length of tubing change is not so drastic.

[FOSSIL]

To be accurate, Eb on the second valve alone gives a flat C in first with two valves....flat E gives an in tune low C in first.... confused? I know I am
Chris

[Finetales]

With the second valve in D alone, would that give an in-tune B with both, or would that be flat as well?

[FOSSIL]

Yes, D gives B with both.

Chris

[spencercarran]

Shouldn't the F+D come out flat on the B1? At least on my horn, B1 isn't quite out to 6th position when I'm in D (both valves) so unless you tune the F attachment high it should be slightly too much pipe for B...

Another alternative for independent valves would be to make the second a short G to get Eb in tune with both together - basically making bass trombone valves 1 and 2 correspond to tuba valves 4 and 5. Seems such a setup might be attractive to tuba doublers, though B1 would really be out at the end of the slide.

[FOSSIL]

Shouldn't the F+D come out flat on the B1? At least on my horn, B1 isn't quite out to 6th position when I'm in D (both valves) so unless you tune the F attachment high it should be slightly too much pipe for B...

Another alternative for independent valves would be to make the second a short G to get Eb in tune with both together - basically making bass trombone valves 1 and 2 correspond to tuba valves 4 and 5. Seems such a setup might be attractive to tuba doublers, though B1 would really be out at the end of the slide.

We were talking second valve in D would combine with first valve in F to give B in first with both valves... it seems close...closer than F plus Eb making C...that's too flat.

Chris

[LeoInFL]

I recall a video on YT of Charlie Vernon playing a bass with the 2nd valve at C or D. So much tubing! Hurts my wrist just thinking about it.

[spencercarran]

Right, just thinking relative to having my horn in D with both valves... B isn't all the way out in 6th, so I would expect adding the same amount of pipe as another F attachment would be too long?

My math might be wrong, but an F attachment should add about 0.9m of pipe, B1 requires ~5.19m, D2 should be ~4.34m. It looks like combining independent F and D valves is about 5cm too much total pipe for B to be in tune.

[JohnL]

Another alternative for independent valves would be to make the second a short G to get Eb in tune with both together - basically making bass trombone valves 1 and 2 correspond to tuba valves 4 and 5. Seems such a setup might be attractive to tuba doublers, though B1 would really be out at the end of the slide.

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the second valve, doesn't it?

[mrdeacon]

Another alternative for independent valves would be to make the second a short G to get Eb in tune with both together - basically making bass trombone valves 1 and 2 correspond to tuba valves 4 and 5. Seems such a setup might be attractive to tuba doublers, though B1 would really be out at the end of the slide.

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the second valve, doesn't it?

I thought the same thing as Spencercarran when I first got my F/G/Eb horn but once you spend some time with the traditional G tuning you get used to it. You can't play B natural above the staff with it or play Eb below the staff but it's absolutely worth being every so slightly flat so you can actually play B natural without having to have gorilla arms.

[spencercarran]

Even in E you can reach B1, just not easily for most people. B1 doesn't come up that often though, so you have to make the tradeoff between what's most convenient for the extreme low end vs what's most useful in the midrange.

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the second valve, doesn't it?

I thought the same thing as Spencercarran when I first got my F/G/Eb horn but once you spend some time with the traditional G tuning you get used to it. You can't play B natural above the staff with it or play Eb below the staff but it's absolutely worth being every so slightly flat so you can actually play B natural without having to have gorilla arms.

Yeah, this is probably right. B3 on the open horn and Eb2 with the f attachment are both plenty close enough that you don't need the second valve to provide extra alternatives. My suspicion is that for someone with only slightly longer than average arms (standard 7th is around the longest comfortable extension of my arm, without any stretching or shift in posture), F-G-(flat)Eb gets about as many extra position options as possible without sacrificing accessibility of the low B.

One point I missed earlier -

We can debate the relative merits of G, flat-G, Gb or longer on a independent, but I fail to see any benefit the E/flat-E provides over D on a dependent other than weighing a less. Was it just inertia?

The original E valve (as operated by the Holton thumb dislocator or similar combined trigger) gets you much closer to a real gliss in the Bartok than you can manage when the second valve has a bigger jump, and that piece was much of the motive for inventing double valved basses in the first place.

[Burgerbob]

Even in E you can reach B1, just not easily for most people.

Maybe on some long slide horns, but not on anything I've used. If you can't get a real low C when tuned to F, then there's no way you can get a real B when tuned to E.

[spencercarran]

Even in E you can reach B1, just not easily for most people.

Maybe on some long slide horns, but not on anything I've used. If you can't get a real low C when tuned to F, then there's no way you can get a real B when tuned to E.

I tune F attachment a bit low, so that C3 is right on in first position. You can definitely get a real C2, and even the valve G2 (necessary in Hary Janos) is possible with the slide nearly hanging off the stockings. Downside is that setup makes first position valve F2 bad, so I spend a bit more time out in sixth.

Not sure if low B was reachable with the original E tuning on my Holton. My arm was shorter back then, so probably not for me, and in any case I kept the second slide pulled out as far as possible (didn't quite take it to Eb) until I was able to have a D slide fabricated.

[JohnL]

One point I missed earlier -

We can debate the relative merits of G, flat-G, Gb or longer on a independent, but I fail to see any benefit the E/flat-E provides over D on a dependent other than weighing a less. Was it just inertia?

The original E valve (as operated by the Holton thumb dislocator or similar combined trigger) gets you much closer to a real gliss in the Bartok than you can manage when the second valve has a bigger jump, and that piece was much of the motive for inventing double valved basses in the first place.

While it is entirely possible that that Kleinhammer, Kahila, Ostrander, et al, were motivated by the "Bartók gliss", it's important to remember that theirs were not the first doubles. Olds introduced the concept in the 1930's - before Bartok composed Concerto for Orchestra; since the Olds singles didn't allow for an E pull, adding a second valve made perfect sense.

That said - my point was not "why E?" but rather "why did it take so long to move to D?" E was the logical choice in the beginning; it mirrored the E pull (or, in a few cases, the half step static valve) that was present in some bass trombone designs, and it is admittedly easier to fake the "Bartók gliss" on a Bb-F-E setup, but Bb-F-D is so much more versatile. Did Bb-F-E persist simply for a single figure in a single work (OK, two works - Bartók put a veritable flock of Bb-F and F-Bb glissandi in The Miraculous Mandarin)?