Bell location, close or far?

ttf_Don Draper · Post by **ttf_Don Draper** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:29 am

Ok.

So after 30+ years of professional playing, I have come to the realization that I like horns with a ball-room type of bell section. By this I mean I like the bell closer to my face rather than far away. I have been playing some horns recently and have noticed that no matter how good a 2B sounds out front, I dont like the sound. I did a comparison between my horn, a LA Williams 6, an amazing vintage 2B, Mike Davis Shires, a 90s Bach 8 and 12, and a Conn 24H.

They were all great. Good sounds, easy to play, etc. The Williams was the winner, with the Bach 8 and 12 in second, Conn in third, then the 2B and the Shires. I noticed that the bells on the Williams, Conn, and Bach were all significantly closer to my ears that the Shires and King. The people listening all felt I sounded more comfortable on the Williams and Bach, probably because I could hear myself better. After playing in a big band with all of them, the difference to me was very pronounced. I could really hear myself and control the balance and blend much better on the horns with the closer bells.

So, does anyone else notice this? On loud salsa, rock, or lead jobs it makes a big difference to me.

Also, what horns have a close bell and what horns are farther away? I was thinking about finding a Martin Committee, Olds Recording, Kanstul 1555, Martin Urbie, and checking those out as the bell seems closer.

This also applies to my bass trombone (Edwards), but interestingly, not nearly as much on my large bore tenor (Yamaha 882O). I have a New York 36B that has a close bell as well that I love

Thoughts? Comments?

DD

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:58 am

As you have already figured out, the Williams and the Bachs have the closest bells. I actually thought Conns were farther away but I don't have any to measure.

I pay attention to that and I agree with you.

I don't think there are any tenors with closer bells than the Bach and Williams.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am

In the last 4 years, I've been on a bit of a horn trying binge. Prior to this, I pretty much stuck to my 88h. In this frenzy of trying everything I could get my hands on, I found that I can adjust to differences more easily if they are mental, but it's more difficult if the difference is physical. For instance, I had a hard time moving from a Schilke 52E2 to a 6 1/2AL. It would take a week for me to make that change. But the difference between a 24h small bell and a 48h larger bell were easier to adjust to. I have noticed too, that I like the bell closer to my face, but if it's not, I can deal with it. Using a small mouthpiece, though, is not as easy. Moving from a bass sound to a lead tenor sound is comparatively easy, but moving to two triggers from one or zero is difficult. When it's a mental change, its easy to just recalibrate, and say "ok, now THIS is the target sound". I've tried so many different things that all sound good to me, and its impossible to say one is better than the other, maybe they are just more appropriate in different situations. This is why I can't really bring myself to picking a single favorite - they all sound different, but they all sound good to me. I play orchestral, chamber, big band, so I don't have a single style that's really dominant. Maybe that's why I can't focus on a single type of sound.

In my head this rambling is all related to your question. Like you, I do prefer the closer bell, and I'm getting to where I also prefer the smaller bells (well, not 6" bells, but 7- 7 1/2 on small tenors, and 7 1/2 - 8 on medium tenors, 8 - 8 1/2 on large tenor, and 9 on bass). I think I also prefer light bells over heavy (both 24h and 48h are pretty heavy, but I have a new-to-me 38h that is lighter). All the factors are a bit inter-related, so it's difficult to separate one from the others.

PS: I just measured my 24h (10.5") and 48h (11.5") from bell to mpc receiver. The 24h is called a "ballroom" model because it makes it easier to put a mute in with a closer bell.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:22 am

I've been fighting some left wrist pain.

I've played a couple of weeks on mostly the plastic alto, this week started on the plastic tenor, hoping to get back into brass soon. I've been doing some strength work for the wrist, carefully.

Anyway. I did my routine one day this week rotating playing something on the tenor then immediately on the alto.

The feedback from the bell seems to be a problem on all plastic horns. But the difference between tenor and alto is huge. I attribute it to how much closer the bell is to my ear. The sound out front does not seem to be much different.

I just played a note on each and measured. The alto bell is 15 1/4 inches from my left ear canal, the tenor is 19 inches.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:32 am

I just measured my 42B: it is 17 3/8 inches from bell rim to left ear canal.

ttf_Don Draper · Post by **ttf_Don Draper** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:23 pm

Quote from: hyperbolica on Dec 01, 2017, 07:03AM

PS: I just measured my 24h (10.5") and 48h (11.5") from bell to mpc receiver. The 24h is called a "ballroom" model because it makes it easier to put a mute in with a closer bell.

Interesting! I will measure my Williams and Bach....will post results. Did you go bottom of bell rim straight to mouthpiece receiver?

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:47 pm

It wouldn't be that hard to modify a trombone to have the bell closer. For example, you could make a longer neckpipe, then cut down the bell and/or large tuning slide legs, and move it further back. If you added the same amount of tubing as you took away, the mod would be pitch neutral.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 pm

Quote from: Don Draper on Dec 01, 2017, 12:23PMInteresting! I will measure my Williams and Bach....will post results. Did you go bottom of bell rim straight to mouthpiece receiver?
I rotated the bell over close to the slide so I could measure parallel to the slide tube from the edge of the rim to the edge of the mpc receiver. Should be an easily repeatable measurement on most horns.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:08 pm

Quote from: hyperbolica on Dec 01, 2017, 12:48PMI rotated the bell over close to the slide so I could measure parallel to the slide tube from the edge of the rim to the edge of the mpc receiver. Should be an easily repeatable measurement on most horns.

That will give a consistent measurement from bell to receiver.

But if we're thinking of the bell sound being radiated back, it might make sense to measure to the ear hole also. I just used a regular steel construction measuring tape. You can feel the end on your ear, and look where the tape hits the bell rim.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:58 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 01, 2017, 01:08PMThat will give a consistent measurement from bell to receiver.

But if we're thinking of the bell sound being radiated back, it might make sense to measure to the ear hole also. I just used a regular steel construction measuring tape. You can feel the end on your ear, and look where the tape hits the bell rim.

Couple problems with that. I can't measure to your earhole on my horn. Plus, it's not repeatable. Plus, it's just hard to do. We're really concerned with how far back the bell is, I don't really care where your earhole is. Where you put your earhole is your business, not mine. That could be effected by a lot of stuff that we really don't care about, like headsize, off-center embouchure, trying to twist your head around because of your inability to see your own earhole, only two arms to hold measuring tape and trombone, etc. ;o)

ttf_bigbandaxes · Post by **ttf_bigbandaxes** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 pm

The Conn 24H was designed with a shorter bell to facilitate mute changes. Basically a 4H with a short bell. Back in the 70's out west a lot of guys were playing them not for mute changes, but for studio work. They felt it gave them a better "feel" for what and how they were playing. Especially dynamic ranges. I've been looking for one, but have not come across any.

ttf_Don Draper · Post by **ttf_Don Draper** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:48 am

My Williams 6 made in Burbank has a bell to receiver distance of 10.5".

dd

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:52 am

I think 10.5" is as short as I've found. A lot of horns are more like 11-11.5"

ttf_bassboneman · Post by **ttf_bassboneman** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:31 am

I know on basses - the holton's bell are closer than any of the others...

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:01 am

I have kept measurements of that distance for some trombones. Found my chart...
All in inches from the receiver to the bell:

Bach 6-8-12-16: 10.5 to 10.9
Conn small horns: 11.5 to 11.75
Williams 6: 10.5
Olds Recording: 11-3/8
King 2B & 3B: 11-3/8 to 11.5
Yamaha 354: 11.75
Bach 36B & 42B: 10-5/8 to 10-3/4
Conn 88H: 11-5/8

My Schmelzer #1 is the shortest, at 10-3/8
Conns and Yamaha are the longest, at 11-3/4

The OP said a Conn 24H was close. I haven't measured one, but all the Conns I have measured were pretty long bells.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:26 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 04, 2017, 10:01AMI have kept measurements of that distance for some trombones. Found my chart...
All in inches from the receiver to the bell:

Bach 6-8-12-16: 10.5 to 10.9
Conn small horns: 11.5 to 11.75
Williams 6: 10.5
Olds Recording: 11-3/8
King 2B & 3B: 11-3/8 to 11.5
Yamaha 354: 11.75
Bach 36B & 42B: 10-5/8 to 10-3/4
Conn 88H: 11-5/8

My Schmelzer #1 is the shortest, at 10-3/8
Conns and Yamaha are the longest, at 11-3/4

The OP said a Conn 24H was close. I haven't measured one, but all the Conns I have measured were pretty long bells.

I mentioned earlier I have a 24h and measured it at 10.5".

The Conn 1st gen 38h, 22h, 24h, 25h, 26h, 27h, 28h, 40h, 41h, 42h were all ballroom models: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn24H1940image.html

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:26 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 04, 2017, 10:01AMI have kept measurements of that distance for some trombones. Found my chart...
All in inches from the receiver to the bell:

Bach 6-8-12-16: 10.5 to 10.9
Conn small horns: 11.5 to 11.75
Williams 6: 10.5
Olds Recording: 11-3/8
King 2B & 3B: 11-3/8 to 11.5
Yamaha 354: 11.75
Bach 36B & 42B: 10-5/8 to 10-3/4
Conn 88H: 11-5/8

My Schmelzer #1 is the shortest, at 10-3/8
Conns and Yamaha are the longest, at 11-3/4

The OP said a Conn 24H was close. I haven't measured one, but all the Conns I have measured were pretty long bells.

I mentioned earlier I have a 24h and measured it at 10.5".

The Conn 1st gen 38h, 22h, 24h, 25h, 26h, 27h, 28h, 40h, 41h, 42h were all ballroom models: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn24H1940image.html