Non-small bore tenor with F for small hands

[WF7]

Greetings!

My middle school daughter is very comfortable holding a small bore YSL-651 (.500). She also finds YSL-356R (.500/.525) to be fairly comfortable. I am looking to transition her to a larger bore instrument for orchestra / high school. We tried a Conn 52H (.525/.547), but the ergonomics don’t work. Despite the fact that there is a factory-installed ring below the top slide, presumably for the left index finger, she complains of hand cramping. The Conn slide is definitely wider than the Yamaha.

I realize that she could probably get away with playing the 356R for several years to come. Her interests include jazz band, concert band, orchestra. She has a pretty good low range - I heard her sounding pedal Gb and Eb yesterday. So part of the rationale for larger bore is perhaps a better transition to bass at some point.

Any suggestions on medium / large bore tenors with a valve that work for smaller hands? How about a bass, for down the road?

~wf7

[SwissTbone]

Two large bore models come to mind as very comfortable for small hands:

- king 4bf: the brace under the valve lever acts like a bullet brace and the ring on the slide really helps. Here are some detailed pictures:
https://swisstbone.com/king-4b-tenor-trombone/

- Probably the most comfortable large bore I have ever played is the Kühnl & Hoyer Slokar solo. The bell brace goes under your thumb so it basically acts like a bullet brace, add to that the Williams style slide brace and you have a very ergonomic design.
Some pictures:
https://swisstbone.com/kuhnl-hoyer-slokar-solo-tenor/

Not trying to plug my business. Pictures are just so you can see what makes a trombone comfortable to hold in my opinion.

[Klimchak]

If she is fine with the 356R, why not try another Yamaha? The 356’s slide is already fairly wide. I am pretty sure the large Yamaha slides are of a similar diameter, at least for the non-Xeno models.

[ithinknot]

Virtually anything might work with a hand support. Plenty in the archives on this topic (for e.g., https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&start=50), plus a nice list of most of the options someone compiled here: https://medium.com/@souzace/trombone-ha ... d57e15479b

Neotech or Yamaha strap are both very inexpensive and a good place to start.

Also getting valve levers bent/adjusted to suit is not a big deal. If and when she tries a bass, it's more or less mandatory... as is the hand support, if you know what's good for you!

[Matt K]

I might have a Used Yamah that will work for your daughter if you want to send me a pm.

[BGuttman]

The King 3BF has a relatively small reach and the bell brace goes between thumb and first finger. It's slightly larger bore than most student trombones, but not Medium or Large by any stretch.

The Olds Recording with F, Superstar with F, or Ambassador with F (Pro, Advanced, and Student, respectively) are also set up for smaller hands. Dual bore, something like 0.490/0.510" (a little larger than a student horn, but not much).

The Holton TR-680 is a large bore tenor set up with the thumb behind the bell brace. The TR-150 also has the thumb behind bell brace, but a larger reach and may be difficult for small hands.

[Slidennis]

I don't like the ergonomics of my 52H trigger as well...

As for the King 4B, there are two versions of them, the old one with the F trigger past the bell brace, and the new ones (from the ~ 90's onwards or something like that) with the trigger set in front of the brace...

I find that a new Conn 88H has a much user friendly trigger, that you can adjust to your needs, than the 52H.
It is screwed to an axle and you can fit the paddle at the right position.

[Doug Elliott]

The K&H Slokar solo is absolutely the most comfortable to hold. And play.

[SwissTbone]

The K&H Slokar solo is absolutely the most comfortable to hold. And play.

FWIW all K&H trombones I played so far are very comfortable to hold. Didn't play a bass yet though.

[Ndwood]

I would also very strongly recommend just getting a hand support like the ones mentioned above. I barely know any adults who don’t use them on large bore tenors and basses and kids need them even more.

Horns that use the front bell brace as a hand support are great if they fit your hand but can be a harder fix than buying a hand support if they don’t. If I were you I would just find a cheap used large bore Yamaha in good shape and just get a support for it.

[spencercarran]

Benge 175 has a quite narrow slide (a bit too narrow for my comfort), but it's "only" medium (0.525) bore and not always easy to find.

Hand support like Neotech is probably the best option, since then you can pick out an instrument that works for her musically and fix the ergonomic issues separately.

[afugate]

Benge 175 has a quite narrow slide (a bit too narrow for my comfort), but it's "only" medium (0.525) bore and not always easy to find.

Hand support like Neotech is probably the best option, since then you can pick out an instrument that works for her musically and fix the ergonomic issues separately.

Good suggestions.
--Andy in OKC

[Mamaposaune]

I find that the Conn 88H (have only played the older Elkhart ones) are the easiest to hold for someone with smaller hands; the slide is narrower than most other .547's, and the string trigger linkage makes it adjustable.
The 4B's, no - at least not when you have to use the trigger.

[harrisonreed]

The 88H is great for smaller hands and thinner necks. That doesn't mean the F trigger won't cause cramping. Maybe one of the suggestions above, or an 88H with a strap, wrist brace (forget what those things are called -- you see em on bass a lot), or bullet brace.

[dukesboneman]

I would leave her on the horn she has or at least this school if not next also.
As she grows and matures as a person and as a musician get her a horn that will fit her better

[harrisonreed]

I would leave her on the horn she has or at least this school if not next also.
As she grows and matures as a person and as a musician get her a horn that will fit her better

+1 upvote

[lupusargentus]

Stick with what's working. The 651 is a fine horn (biased I have one) and the 356R seem to always get good comments. Both should do very well for her for the next couple years.
I don't understand the push to move young players into large bore horns they can't fill up. I played a 36 in college and no one ever said it was thin compared to the guys with the 42s.

[Posaunus]

No valid reason to push a middle-schooler to a large bore trombone. Many of us did just fine without such a big jump, even through high school.
On the other hand, an F-attachment can be a competitive advantage in high school. Iff you have the funds, you might want to consider a small-medium bore such as a King 3Bf or one of Yamaha's intermediate horns, say 0.525" bore.

[Cotboneman]

I'm not sure if the youngster is a 7th or 8th grader, but I would agree that there is no real reason right now to jump into a .547 right now. The Yamaha .525 intermediate horns are very good, and are compact enough to not present any particularly challenging handling problems. When I was teaching middle school band I purchased a few YSL-446G trombones over the years and found students had no problems handling them. There is a JP/Rath with a similar wrap available as well; those have adjustable triggers for smaller hands.

[brtnats]

Decent chance you might be accidentally sabotaging progress, too. The 356 is EASY to play and super versatile. Larger horns aren’t just harder to hold; they’re harder to fill.

+1 for keeping her on the 356 as long as possible (and definitely until the early HS growth spurt).

Also +1 for a hand brace ASAP, even on the 356. The ergonomics are just plain better, which makes it easier to practice, which makes it easier to improve, which makes it more fun to practice.

[Matt K]

Decent chance you might be accidentally sabotaging progress, too. The 356 is EASY to play and super versatile. Larger horns aren’t just harder to hold; they’re harder to fill.

+1 for keeping her on the 356 as long as possible (and definitely until the early HS growth spurt).

Also +1 for a hand brace ASAP, even on the 356. The ergonomics are just plain better, which makes it easier to practice, which makes it easier to improve, which makes it more fun to practice.

I’m a little bias but I have several similar sized horns including a 356 and actually find the 356 to be a little more difficult to fill,for lack of a better term, compared with slightly larger Yamahas for a few reasons. The 356 is a pretty heavy bell, which makes sense it being a student horn. It’s more like a Bach 36 than a Con 78 or King 3B+. The 600 and 500 series largely have a little lighter bell, so all else being equal, I find a 646/645 to be slightly easier than a 356. Which, to be fair, are only medium bore horns, not large bore.

That isn’t to say the 356 is bad, I love mine. But if I had a student looking for a horn, I wouldn’t default to the 356 if I had the ability to let them play, say, a 356, 446, and 646/640. But I also generally don’t like Bachs anymore. If you’re more of a Bach person, you might find it ideal compared to the larger Yamahas that have the slightly lighter bells.

[MTbassbone]

In no particular order:
Bach 36
Conn 88H
Getzen 4147IB
Courtois AC440
Yamaha Xeno YSL-882O or 882GO
Yamaha Xeno YSL-882 or 882G

I am not sure if either of these horns have a narrow slide or not:
Yamaha YSL-620 (.547) or YSL-640 (.525)

I played a Bach 36K into my early college years until I got caught up in the large bore craze. It was a great horn, and honestly I wish I would have stayed on a medium bore. I have been very impressed by the Getzen, Courtois, and both Yamaha Xeno horns when test playing. IMHO the ergonomics on the Conn 88H are not as good as the other horns, but your mileage may vary. With exception of the Getzen I have seen all of these horns used for less than 2K, and most were in like new condition. It may take some searching but they are out there.

[WF7]

I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses. Exactly what I expected having lurked here for so long!

The reason I had been thinking about switching her from the 356R is that years ago I had come across Doug Yeo’s website. http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... osing.html

From Yeo’s perspective it is wasteful to buy intermediate/medium bore horns and that after a small bore, kids can go directly to a large bore. Additionally he suggests that 8th grade is a reasonable time to make the switch to a large-bore tenor with valve. He indicates that if a kid goes directly to a professional model, there would be no need to buy anything else...Maybe that doesn’t sit well with those of us who are gear-heads!

I probably have been influenced by reading so many posts about Trombone Chatters using different horns in different situations...which may be appropriate for you professionals or talented amateurs...but not so suitable for a middle school kid.

We have tried two grip aids so far on the Conn 52H:

1) Get-A-Grip https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00
It seems that this grip kind of pushes the hand forward relative to the slide. It took less than a day for my kid to slice her palm with the slide. We can see if putting the left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace helps – but I am not sure if that hand position is compatible with GAG.

2) Wise Comfort Grip https://www.dillonmusic.com/wise-grip-comfort-grip/
This built up grip definitely pushes the left hand closer to the slide. Putting the left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace is especially uncomfortable because the middle and ring fingers are separated by both the slide brace and the Wise Comfort Grip.

We are both experimenting with using that altered hand position (left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace) in the absence of any grip aids. It is a little uncomfortable on the fingers, but the balance is better…and puts the palm farther from the dreaded end of the outer slide - which could double as a vegetable peeler.
We plan on trying Neo-tech in the coming weeks.

Cotboneman, I read your post about putting middle schoolers on YSL-446G. I am curious – what was your rationale for buying 446s over 356s?

The K&H Slokar design mentioned by SwissTbone and Doug Elliot looks really interesting. I am all about supporting manufacturers that offer superior designs, especially in something as important as ergonomics.

On the other hand, I am kind of partial to Yamaha as most of our experience has been on them.

I have a large bore Conn that I played for a year or so. Don’t remember the model – except that it had a removable valve. As an aside, I don’t really see the point of having a removable valve when taking it out totally throws off the balance of the instrument. Anyway, my daughter didn’t like that Conn (with valve in place) when she tried it a couple years ago because it was so old and crusty that it had an odor which remained even after my tech gave it a chemical bath. Granted, the large bore takes more air - but that might not be such a big deal given the following context:

My daughter likes messing around on our large bore euphonium using a Wick 4 mouthpiece. And she plays tuba in the middle school orchestra – which I am ambivalent about given the more drastic mouthpiece size differential. But there was no tuba player and she just couldn’t bring herself to say no to the orchestra director.
Still, I am a bit of a gradualist at heart. For instance, for trombone I started her on a Bach 12C, eventually moving to 6 ¾ C, and very recently switching to 6 ½ A (no L). The rationale here was to eliminate rim changes when switching back and forth between small and large bore (whenever she makes that jump).

One other bias we have - horns should be beautiful. Looking at the YSL-651 - rose bell and nickel silver everywhere else - just makes me happy, increasing the likelihood that the instrument will get some love. We are partial to red/rose/gold bells.

Given all the feedback, I suspect that if/when she switches, it would be to a 0.525 single bore horn. But we are still considering and there is no rush. We look forward to any other comments.

~wf7

[BGuttman]

Yamaha has a variety of medium bore trombones with F attachments:

YSL 646. Older Pro model. Has been rebadged with a little less "bling" as YSL 446. Gold brass bells were available on the 646 as the YSL-646G.

YSL-684. Replaced the 646. Available with gold brass bell as YSL-684G.

YSL-640. Replaced the 684. Available with gold brass bell as YSL-640G.

I believe there is a Xeno model as well, with an 8xx number.

Still, with all your comments about grip aids, consider an instrument that may not need one like a Holton 680, King 607 (Gold Bell version 608), or King 2125F (3B Plus with F).

[Burgerbob]

We have tried two grip aids so far on the Conn 52H:

I'd try the Neotech trombone grip-

https://www.amazon.com/Neotech-5131001- ... 795&sr=8-1

and the Leather Specialties strap-

https://www.lscoguard.com/tenor-trombon ... -size.html

Both cheaper and a little more useful than either of the grip aids you've tried, especially for smaller hands.

[Posaunus]

I would speculate that the "sweet spot" for this small-handed student would be an intermediate-bore (~0.525") with F-attachment. There are some nice-looking, easy-to-handle trombones in this category. [Yamaha could be a good choice.] Most importantly, such an instrument would allow her more flexibility, would possibly provide a competitive advantage over her classmates (who may have only straight trombones or large-bores that they are struggling to handle / fill), and would also meet her need to please the band / orchestra director who might want to give her more opportunities with such a versatile instrument. Such a trombone could last her up to / into college.

[MrHCinDE]

- Probably the most comfortable large bore I have ever played is the Kühnl & Hoyer Slokar solo. The bell brace goes under your thumb so it basically acts like a bullet brace, add to that the Williams style slide brace and you have a very ergonomic design.

Another option could be the K&H Bolero, it has a similar trigger setup to the Slokar solo but is about 1000€ cheaper (new) and is a very fine large bore tenor in its own right. I found it to be supremely comfortable to hold and an excellent player with superb build quality.

I haven‘t tried the Slokar so can‘t compare directly, would be interesting to hear from anyone who has played both.

[brtnats]

I would speculate that the "sweet spot" for this small-handed student would be an intermediate-bore (~0.525") with F-attachment. There are some nice-looking, easy-to-handle trombones in this category. [Yamaha could be a good choice.] Most importantly, such an instrument would allow her more flexibility, would possibly provide a competitive advantage over her classmates (who may have only straight trombones or large-bores that they are struggling to handle / fill), and would also meet her need to please the band / orchestra director who might want to give her more opportunities with such a versatile instrument. Such a trombone could last her up to / into college.

I’m wondering if we’re getting too bound up in bore size here. If holding the instrument is the primary problem, then aren’t weight and slide-width significant? I’ve owned a HEAVY Bach 36 with a slide just as wide as an 88H, and a Yamaha 448G that was unbalanced towards the front. I used a Greenhoe rest bar on both of them to overcome the holding disadvantage (I’ve got small hands too, and mine aren’t getting any bigger).

Is the problem the grip, the weight, or the sound? Those might all have different solutions.

Also, how’s the slide on her current instrument? Rough slides make left-hand problems worse and make the instrument difficult to play for extended periods.

Large-bore with F is a lot of horn to give to a growing middle schooler if your problem is better serviced with a hand brace. Tried bullet brace or Axe handle?mmhttps://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/trombone/ac ... pports.php

They’re more expensive solutions, but they work and you can transfer them to new horns when they come along. Neotech if you’re trying to save money.

[Cotboneman]

I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses. Exactly what I expected having lurked here for so long!

The reason I had been thinking about switching her from the 356R is that years ago I had come across Doug Yeo’s website. http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... osing.html

From Yeo’s perspective it is wasteful to buy intermediate/medium bore horns and that after a small bore, kids can go directly to a large bore. Additionally he suggests that 8th grade is a reasonable time to make the switch to a large-bore tenor with valve. He indicates that if a kid goes directly to a professional model, there would be no need to buy anything else...Maybe that doesn’t sit well with those of us who are gear-heads!

I probably have been influenced by reading so many posts about Trombone Chatters using different horns in different situations...which may be appropriate for you professionals or talented amateurs...but not so suitable for a middle school kid.

We have tried two grip aids so far on the Conn 52H:

1) Get-A-Grip https://www.sheridanbrass.com/store/get ... mVtg-fWd00
It seems that this grip kind of pushes the hand forward relative to the slide. It took less than a day for my kid to slice her palm with the slide. We can see if putting the left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace helps – but I am not sure if that hand position is compatible with GAG.

2) Wise Comfort Grip https://www.dillonmusic.com/wise-grip-comfort-grip/
This built up grip definitely pushes the left hand closer to the slide. Putting the left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace is especially uncomfortable because the middle and ring fingers are separated by both the slide brace and the Wise Comfort Grip.

We are both experimenting with using that altered hand position (left middle finger on the face-side of the slide brace) in the absence of any grip aids. It is a little uncomfortable on the fingers, but the balance is better…and puts the palm farther from the dreaded end of the outer slide - which could double as a vegetable peeler.
We plan on trying Neo-tech in the coming weeks.

Cotboneman, I read your post about putting middle schoolers on YSL-446G. I am curious – what was your rationale for buying 446s over 356s?

The K&H Slokar design mentioned by SwissTbone and Doug Elliot looks really interesting. I am all about supporting manufacturers that offer superior designs, especially in something as important as ergonomics.

On the other hand, I am kind of partial to Yamaha as most of our experience has been on them.

I have a large bore Conn that I played for a year or so. Don’t remember the model – except that it had a removable valve. As an aside, I don’t really see the point of having a removable valve when taking it out totally throws off the balance of the instrument. Anyway, my daughter didn’t like that Conn (with valve in place) when she tried it a couple years ago because it was so old and crusty that it had an odor which remained even after my tech gave it a chemical bath. Granted, the large bore takes more air - but that might not be such a big deal given the following context:

My daughter likes messing around on our large bore euphonium using a Wick 4 mouthpiece. And she plays tuba in the middle school orchestra – which I am ambivalent about given the more drastic mouthpiece size differential. But there was no tuba player and she just couldn’t bring herself to say no to the orchestra director.
Still, I am a bit of a gradualist at heart. For instance, for trombone I started her on a Bach 12C, eventually moving to 6 ¾ C, and very recently switching to 6 ½ A (no L). The rationale here was to eliminate rim changes when switching back and forth between small and large bore (whenever she makes that jump).

One other bias we have - horns should be beautiful. Looking at the YSL-651 - rose bell and nickel silver everywhere else - just makes me happy, increasing the likelihood that the instrument will get some love. We are partial to red/rose/gold bells.

Given all the feedback, I suspect that if/when she switches, it would be to a 0.525 single bore horn. But we are still considering and there is no rush. We look forward to any other comments.

~wf7

My rationale for buying the Yamaha 446's over the YSL356 was simply availability and pricing. I purchased locally in Tucson, AZ and was able to get a better deal on the intermediate horns. If I can recall, the 356's were on backorder when we were doing the purchase orders. But my memory could be faulty. It was 20 years ago.

[MichaelMedrick]

There is a little bit of "If it's not broken, don't fix it" to this request. I have taught private lessons and such for decades. I have seen a lot of students pushed towards large bore tenors when they are not needed. Medium to small build young trombonists would be better of NOT bearing that burden until they decide to go forward with a career in music.
The Yamaha 356 mentioned by the OP is a fine trombone. I have been recommending those for years, as well as find 353s, the sans f att. version, as a "jazz" horn for those habituated to large bore tenor. We should be talking about .525 bore horns as well. There are Yamaha, Bach and other makes that are great instruments. Focusing on .547 bore tenors to early is an easy, but perhaps overkill for many young students. That said, a vintage Conn 88H is a very graceful version of the .547 trombone. IMHO, must other trombones that serve are over-built, over- weight and only serve one master.

[dcslideman]

Yamaha has a variety of medium bore trombones with F attachments:

YSL 646. Older Pro model. Has been rebadged with a little less "bling" as YSL 446. Gold brass bells were available on the 646 as the YSL-646G.

YSL-684. Replaced the 646. Available with gold brass bell as YSL-684G.

YSL-640. Replaced the 684. Available with gold brass bell as YSL-640G.

Bruce, would you expect the 445/446 slide would fit the others (646/684/640) ?

[BGuttman]

I've never tested it, but yes.