Medium Bore Comparisons

[posaunebone]

Hello all!

I've been considering adding a medium bore into the stable but could use some perspective on gear choice.

Primarily a tenor player, Bach 42 gets the most face time.

Thinking of adding something like a straight 36 or 78H to the collection (or really considering holding out for a nice bach 34). Have also considered just finding a medium bore slide to use on the 42 bell section, but that would also involve converting my valve setup to something modular to allow for a straight horn setup. Not a crazy can of worms or something I'd be opposed to, but I'm also not opposed to adding something pretty to the collection

I've always been a Bach player, but I have great respect for the vintage horns and the 78H comes up in conversation (and for sale) quite often. I wonder if someone could describe the difference in feel / sound between both of those.

I'm wondering if seeking out a straight 34 might be the best route. Something that feels / lines up similar to home base Bach 42, but gives that ease of a smaller horn. Seems the consensus on the 36 is it's a small big horn vs the 34 is more of a big small horn, which is what I think I want. If the 78H is in the big small horn camp, that might work too.

Thanks in advance!

[Jimkinkella]

The 78h is definitely a largeish (not big) small horn.
Think chamber music kinda stuff, a bit less beefy than the 36.
The valved and straight versions play very different.
I prefer the valved even though it’s a bit more restricted.

A King 3b+ is an interesting in-betweener.
The valve is kind of small and unbalanced to me, but that’s personal preference.

The Rath 525 felt to me kind of King-ish, but the valved version was much better than the King.

I had tried a couple of Shires, but none of them made sense to me. Maybe if I played mostly pit work?

Don’t know the Yamaha’s, I’ll let others comment.

There are a couple of really interesting dual-bores if you have the budget and / or luck to find one: Inderbinen, Thein, I think Rath does one....

[Burgerbob]

It's totally up to what you want out of your medium bore.

[spencercarran]

36 with an appropriate mouthpiece choice can definitely be a nimbler/easier alternative to the 42 you're already familiar with. Nice vintage Corporation era 36 is sure to pop up cheap if you keep an eye out.

I switched away from my 36b to a Benge 175f. Nice horn, but completely different feel to a Bach so probably less of what you're looking for. It depends a bit what you want to use it for; the 36 will feel a bit overwhelming in many big band settings (fine on 3rd bone though) but it fits in great for almost any general trombone playing where you might like a lighter 42.

[hyperbolica]

36 can be a nice instrument and you can get them reasonably priced used. You'll be lucky to find a 34.

You might also try a 3b+, it's on the smaller feel side, but finding one with a valve might be tough.

I've just gone through a breakup with a 78. It plays like a big 6h, which was not at all what I was hoping for. 79h is to me a better horn, even though the specs make it look like a 78 with a valve, it's pretty nimble, but definitely a Conn.

The Rath is what I'd get if I had a bigger pile of play money. That will give you more options for convertible configurations and bell materials and sizes.

It all depends on what you want to do with it, how much y you want to spend on it, and your tastes. If you go somewhere like Dillons you can play all of them side by side.

[JLivi]

I think it all depends on how you plan to use it. What are you looking to get out of a medium bore horn?

I mainly play funk, brass band and jobbing gigs. And for me the medium bore trombones help me the most for jobbing. I love how easy it is to go from genre to genre and play different parts, whether it double the bass line or play a trumpet 2 part. For me, I think the medium bore is the jack of all trades horn. It does everything well, but sometimes I don't want to work that hard. And for everything else, I play a 3b. And I've been a 3b player for almost 20 years at this point.

[Vegasbound]

Your a Bach guy, as others have said get a great playing 36

[djkennedy]

Hello 36 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[elmsandr]

...
I'm wondering if seeking out a straight 34 might be the best route. Something that feels / lines up similar to home base Bach 42, but gives that ease of a smaller horn. Seems the consensus on the 36 is it's a small big horn vs the 34 is more of a big small horn, which is what I think I want. If the 78H is in the big small horn camp, that might work too.
....

I'm not sure that is the consensus on the 34... I think that is my opinion, but I don't know enough players out there on them to know if there is a consensus.

Really, they are like finding needles in a haystack, there just aren't that many of them and they were never really that popular. I certainly would not suggest that a 34 vs a 36 is something that can be chosen by spec; you should really play some 36s and see if you like them or not. The 34 can be good option from there, but you will not have the opportunity to play many, or even one before buying. You should, however, be able to move a rare-ish horn for about what you put in to it if it doesn't work for you.

Cheers,
Andy

[deanmccarty]

If you really like your Bach, I would go with a 36. I used to have a 36 with a gold brass bell and a nickel slide… it was fantastic! A great salsa horn!

I currently own a Rath R3… if I only had one horn, it would be the R3… super versatile… depending on mouthpiece and leadpipe combination this can be used for anything from lead trombone to symphonic playing. Add to the fact that you can add and take away your rotor section at any point.

These would be my two recommendations… you can’t go wrong with either one.

[djkennedy]

I have a fantastic 36
A do anything horn !!!!!!
-//-///—/////
Currently there are several here
A Corp in excellent loose leadpipe
French case. Wow 1500
An interesting one proven
Bare brass brass lab weight and leadpipe
Provenance Clark Gayton EStreet band 1700
-///-//:/:/
2 78h also one minty beautiful 1400
And much used utility from
A symphony principal in OZ—-1100
///////—-/////////
Unknown untried
Selmer Paris M40——1400
-/////::
Besson 10-10. 650-850
-:/:////
Bach 34. An associate ha one that
Has been played by one who knows these
As the best he has ever played
Under 2K if available!!!! Elkhart
-/-///-://://

[Mv2541]

If you want a big small horn, an R3 with a small shank leadpipe will probably feel great, as will something like a 3B+. The 36, large shank R3, or any Shires/Edwards will likely feel more of a small big horn.

Since you have a King as a small bore I’d go the 3B/3B+ route. I think they have the same bell section right? (Someone will correct me if not), so you might be able to have both setups in one if you bought an extra slide.

[Burgerbob]

Since you have a King as a small bore I’d go the 3B/3B+ route. I think they have the same bell section right?

They have different slide receivers, sadly

[Mv2541]

Since you have a King as a small bore I’d go the 3B/3B+ route. I think they have the same bell section right?

They have different slide receivers, sadly

Do the 2B and 3B have different receivers too? Or is that the ones that are interchangeable?

[ithinknot]

Do the 2B and 3B have different receivers too? Or is that the ones that are interchangeable?

From the archives:

2B/Jiggs/old single bore Liberty/605/older tempo with 7.5” nickle bell are compatible

3B/2B+/606/Benge 170/Tempo with 8” nickel bell are compatible

3B+/607/608/609/Benge 160,175 are compatible

4B/5B/Benge 165 and 190 are compatible

Different tenons between each series, so some mods would have to be done to put a 3B slide on a 3B+ bell section

[Thrawn22]

They have different slide receivers, sadly

Do the 2B and 3B have different receivers too? Or is that the ones that are interchangeable?

King slide receiver interchangeability are few. 2Bs can easily swap till you get to the 2B+. The 2B+ slide from what i understand can be used with a 3B bell. The 3B+ i think someone said cand be used with the 606F bell? Certainly not cut and dry like other makers.


To the op, finding a .525 will envolve some either personal preference (maker) or some playtesting. I use Conns so i immediately wanted a 78H/79H and got one. It plays as described by Jkinkella. Hyperbolica is also correct to wear a 78H can be come off as a big 6H, but i found proper mpc and frame of mind can get it to work great in chamber settings.

The Bach 36s I've played have been really responsive and had great tinal color. If i were a Bach fan I would've gone with a 36. From what I've heard. BACH 34s are similar design to a 78H, but due to rarity i haven't played one.

I know Bach doesn't offer a stock dual bore slide (or i haven't seen one advertised) but maybe a .525/.547 slide may give you what you need? Getting one for my 8H was the best decision i made. That, and buying a 78H

[Briande]

I really like my 3B+ w/F if you can find one. Kind of my Swiss Army knife. It does everything.

[MichaelMedrick]

This is a great thread. I bumble along, practice and do not at my age, worry much about equipment.
That said, I have a played a Bach 36/36B in as a daily driver for multiple jazz applications, including Lead, 2nd, 3rd and occasionally 4th when playing vintage dance band charts. Chamber music, orchestral repertoire, musicals, church work...

I have a late 70s 36g with a lightweight slide that I acquires about 1983 as new old stock. It is pretty high mileage, but still plays. Eric Edwards refurbished it and it will go for another ten year make-over soon.
Eric also built a doppelganger that has a convertible bell. It make actually play better than my original love.

Mouthpieces and lead pipes make a big difference for me. My go to has been a Bach 4 ( no g, GS or whatever) which I switched to about ten years ago after a long while on a Bach 5. With non-stock and stock lead pipes, I have flirted with playing the several smaller rims and settled on a 6 3/4 C as a good compromise.

Substituting a Holle Unbraced tuning slide changes the response favorable. I have a nickel one and am sure the copper would be just fine.

Eric Edwards also built booth .509-.525( 36 slide frame) and .525-547 (wider bow) slides with 36 connectors. This process is probably what soured me on fully with equipment. The slides had promise, but MEh... A good corporation brass slide with the lead pipe pulled to facilitate tweaking that way works as well, or better.
I am about to sell both of them. If anyone has interest, message me. ([email protected]) It was a great experience/experiment I no longer care to draw out.

It literally makes NO Difference whether you use a 36 or a 42 bell. It is the trim only that differs. Some bells are heavier and some lighter, it is a crap shoot. I tried a 42 Gold brass bell for a while and it was not for me. Too unresponsive and lacking of projection.

[posaunebone]

Agreed - this has been a great thread!

On the one hand, it seems a solid 36 is the obvious choice. On the other hand, I'm of the same though process that since it's the same mandrel just a different trim then why when it would seem nearly the same effect could be had by simply using a 525 36 slide on my 42. That's why I was inching more towards a 34 or Conn or some other sweet spot. The 3B+ is an interesting thought as well but I can see that not being as "legit" sounding if I'm not playing it regularly when needed for wind ensemble or orchestral stuff. I know theyre amazing horns for pit work and jazz section playing. The Raths sure got a ton of praise on this thread and I am sure for good reason! I remember absolutely loving their small bore stuff when I got a chance to play it.

Thinking through these posts I suppose I'm ultimately after something that would provide more ease of playing if something is more demanding. Bonus if it becomes something that could be used lower in a section for blending sake in a big band or for lighter work not needing the full fat 42.

Maybe exploring a new slide / leadpipe / mouthpiece on the existing 42 and getting that converted to a modular setup to be able to play it straight using the 525 slide would be my answer?

Theres a 34 out there that had some interesting work done to it that is really sticking in my mind. Half because of that Mt. Vernon magic, half because of the Chick McAlexander tinkering / widening to 42 dimensions / standardization to 525 might have ended up turning it into exactly what I'm looking for.

Can't decide if it makes logical sense to seek out another horn, or if keeping it simple with a new slide or finding a 36 is the right answer!

[quiethorn]

Just curious... how's the slide width on a 3B+/3BF+? I'm in the market for a medium bore horn too, and this is always the thing I worry about with them since I don't like narrow slides. The 36 has a fairly wide slide, which is good. If you're getting a .547, you know the slide will be wide. If you're getting a .500/.508, you know it'll be narrow. But a .525 could be anything in between.

[Burgerbob]

Just curious... how's the slide width on a 3B+/3BF+?

Same as other narrow small bores, like Bachs or 2B/3B.

[quiethorn]

Just curious... how's the slide width on a 3B+/3BF+?

Same as other narrow small bores, like Bachs or 2B/3B.

That's weird. I figured they'd be wider.

[posaunebone]

Lots of really compelling horns floating around out there. Starting to increasingly find and hear how much preferred the 34 is to the 36. If I didn't have a 42, I'd probably be going with a 36 as it's such a versatile horn with the same 42 DNA I already love (or rather my 42 has 36 DNA ). If going Bach, I'm leaning 34 to have a different enough yet still familiar tool in the toolbox rather than perhaps just a more efficient and similar sounding version of what I already have by grabbing a 36. Pretty consistent theme out there that those who have played a 34 vastly prefer it to their 36.

Next can of worms...Schmelzer. I understand the 1+2 models are Williams based. Does it also follow that a Schmelzer 3 is roughly Williams 8 based, or do the larger Schmelzer models have different design influence? Can't really find info here on anything but the small bores. I'm pretty sure that we had a 3 with a sterling bell with gold plated f attachment and slide years ago when I worked at a music store and we had it on consignment. I remember really liking it and wanting to grab it to blow on when it was slow at the shop, but also at that time my playing wasn't as solid as it is now, so I might have just been grabbing it because of the "ooo shiny effect" not because I noticed how it played

So far, I think I've eliminated the standard Bach 36 or a Conn 78h from my search for my tastes. The Schmelzer and the 34 are piquing my curiousity though. I think modern Edwards or Shires medium bores are out for my tastes too. Rath is still on my radar should the right one pop up. Consistent praise and I do remember absolutely loving their small bores.

However, the logical side of me just says to get or build a 525 slide and straight gooseneck for my 42, and make my bell section modular so I can play it as a straight horn. Who wouldn't want to add a new horn to the stable though #chronicG.A.S.

[Jimkinkella]

Manfred Schmelzer is always on Facebook, I’d look him up.

As far as getting spare parts to have a fully modular horn, in my experience (and spending way too much time and money) out of all of the parts only one setup tends to play really well. I’d recommend finding one (or two) new full horns that really do what you want.

[spencercarran]

Same as other narrow small bores, like Bachs or 2B/3B.

That's weird. I figured they'd be wider.

My Benge 175f (which I believe has the same slide as a 3B+) has a very narrow slide. Narrower than a Bach 39 alto slide.

[Thrawn22]

That's weird. I figured they'd be wider.

My Benge 175f (which I believe has the same slide as a 3B+) has a very narrow slide. Narrower than a Bach 39 alto slide.

King slide crooks dip more than other makers. At least for small tenor .

[posaunebone]

Great call on shooting Schmelzer a facebook message. Their model 3 is Williams 8 based just as the small horns are on the 6. The one up for sale looks to be gold plated as well and in impeccable shape. I just can't seem to find any info on how those play or compare to say a 36 / 42 - only find for sale posts for the 3's which might be telling in and of itself ...

Unless someone can otherwise convince me that the Schmelzer 3 knocks other medium horns out of the water, I've got a hard choice between a few beautiful Bachs to make.

[djkennedy]

The 34. Is rare especially one tested by
BUCKHOLST WHO is was in The Santa Fe opera opera orchestra next to Mark Fisher of the Chicago Opera.
Bachs are so different individually
The one available is basically also a
Mount Vernon became it was certainly fabricated
With MV parts
I had a minty MV in big coffin
It was beautiful but stiff as a brick
If that’s what some like
I traded it for NY 36 No,1500
An incredible magical instrument
Nimble and lite narrow slide
Nothing like those that came after
36 and the rest are a dime a dozen
OUTSTANDING IS A BACH WITH CHARACTER
TESTED BY ONE OF THE TOP PLAYERS IN TROMBONEDOM
MANFRED SCHMELZER IS A GREAT BUILDER
I HAVE A GOLD PLATED 2 A sterling bell 1
Also a silver plated 1 I have brokered several
Williams 8. King 3B+ and uncounted 36s
And the Besson 10/10
Still in the stable a ROMEO ADACHI ELIPTICAL 525
Several Lawler BIG BOYS have passed thru
One in gold plate incredible !!!!!!!!!!
You have the choice of finding an UNKNOWN
OR A PROVEN

[djkennedy]

Ha ha the 34 in question is a MOUNT VERNON
—/———-
Meanwhile I have a 42 bell w 36 slide
Modded by Bennie G while @ Shires

[djkennedy]

New suggested price of MV 34
2.5K!!!!!!!!!!!!
As tested by former
12 year lead player in a USA premier
Service band

[elmsandr]

New suggested price of MV 34
2.5K!!!!!!!!!!!!
As tested by former
12 year lead player in a USA premier
Service band

Wacky. About 10 years ago I though about selling my 34 and couldn't give it away for $1K. Shows how tastes change. Of course, after I threatened to sell it I made more money with that horn than I have with all the others combined in the last 20 years... So I guess it can stay in the stable now.

Cheers,
Andy

[JeremyMcLeroy]

I have a straight 34 and have been able to use it in a wide variety of chamber and pop settings, as well as a wind ensemble. It is by far the easiest horn to play that I have, and can get a relatively big sound for the ease it provides.

[JeremyMcLeroy]

I treat my 34 as if it is a small big horn. But perspective is everything. It depends on what your other instruments are as to how it will feel.

[aboumaia]

...

[hyperbolica]

Hi everyone,
I found someone selling a "medium bore 48H". The seller says that this model was made only from 1962 to 1964, does any Conn specialist here that could confirm that ? ...as I never heard before about a medium bore Connstellation. Thanks !

48h is 500 bore, which I think is called medium bore in UK, but small bore in US. They were made from 1954 to the 80s, but were only widely popular until about 72. Roughly.

[CalgaryTbone]

I'll throw out one more option. I have a really nice Edwards .525 bore. One nice thing about these horns, is that you can throw on a .547 slide with the same bell, and can use it as a straight horn (as I do) or put a valve on it when desired. Likewise, 8 inch and 8.5 inch bells fit the .525 slide. Lots of versatility including choices of leadpidpes.

Jim Scott

[aboumaia]

...

[spencercarran]

Hi everyone,
I found someone selling a "medium bore 48H". The seller says that this model was made only from 1962 to 1964, does any Conn specialist here that could confirm that ? ...as I never heard before about a medium bore Connstellation. Thanks !

48h is 500 bore, which I think is called medium bore in UK, but small bore in US. They were made from 1954 to the 80s, but were only widely popular until about 72. Roughly.

The Conn 4H (0.485 bore) was listed in their catalog as "medium bore." Just a shifting cultural standard for what "normal" sizes are, I think.

[FilipoG]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to recommend the Bach Mercedes as medium bore choice(not the Mercedes II). The one I play was made in 1968. The slide components seem to be identical to the Bach 36. I have had some 36s, and I find this horn plays much like the 36. I like to call it "The Poor Man's Bach 36".