Jazz horn

jpwell · Post by **jpwell** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:03 pm

Helping a friend look for a horn. He is playing an 871 Yama. Plays first part, tired of sixth position. All I know is king 2BF’s. What other horns are there out there that fit the bill, small bore f att.
Thx

RBBERN01 · Post by **RBBERN01** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:43 pm

I think Shires have started to release some small bore horns with f attachments. I’ve seen them on Facebook and they look very nice.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:49 pm

3B/F is a great choice.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:53 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:49 pm 3B/F is a great choice.

King 3B/F (to be clear).

Yam makes a 356 (dual bore.500/.525)

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:58 pm

Shires Michael Davis + .508 or Marshall Gilkes .500 horns can be bought with an F attachment.

Otherwise, you can’t go past a King 3Bf for versatility.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:18 pm

If you don't mind looking for used:

King 605F (it's a small bore with F; probably the closest thing you could find to a 2B with F)
Olds Recording with F, Superstar with F, even Ambassador with F

If you can afford the Davis or Gilkes, they are great horns. There is also a Rath 2.

SlideCrook · Post by **SlideCrook** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:59 pm

If he is playing first part, is he really spending that much time in 6th position?

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:20 pm

SlideCrook wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:59 pm If he is playing first part, is he really spending that much time in 6th position?

It may be he needs to play more than 1st in Jazz Band. Some other parts may need 6th and 7th a bit more.

jpwell · Post by **jpwell** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:47 pm

You got to know my friend one time to 6th per set is tooooo much.

Thx for feedback

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:49 pm

A YSL-871 maps to an alto trombone. Is that correct? Sing Sing Sing is a pain but I don’t think an f-attachment will make it better. We play it too fast.

jpwell · Post by **jpwell** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:26 pm

891z

Bad typing

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:30 pm

No worries.

MrBadger · Post by **MrBadger** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:34 am

Rath will build a small bore with an f-attachment. The option isn’t on their website, just ask them. I’m getting an R12F in the New Year.

As for getting use out of the trigger on lead - I have seen many charts where even the lead trombone part would be made easier - not every arranger is trombone friendly

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:43 am

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:19 am

3B/F, 60's, 70's, today. It's all good. With the right mouthpiece, or several, it's the best design out there that can do it all.

Yeah, one time in 6th is too many. Nobody wants that. The shtick got old back in 1428.

I played a low F once in 6th because a teacher told me that it sounded better there and it was impossible to play in tune in first with the F side of the horn. I pushed the Bb slide in and the F slide out, and never played it in 6th ever again.

Goten56 · Post by **Goten56** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:43 pm

DaCarbo makes a small bore trombone with F attachment. It's a great horn. Very much sounds like a straight one. It's not cheap, but you get quality for your money.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:08 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:19 am I pushed the Bb slide in and the F slide out

I hate to have this be my bugbear, but this still doesn't make any sense.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:22 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:08 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:19 am I pushed the Bb slide in and the F slide out
I hate to have this be my bugbear, but this still doesn't make any sense.

If you push your Bb slide in, the F slide must be pulled out in order to still play an F in first.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:25 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:22 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:08 pm

I hate to have this be my bugbear, but this still doesn't make any sense.
If you push your Bb slide in, the F slide must be pulled out in order to still play an F in first.

This still doesn't make sense. What happens if you push it in? Does it get... flatter?

If anything, the F attachment would stay in pretty much the same place for all changes in main instrument tuning, or be proportional to it (if you pull out, you pull out the F attachment just a little).

IRL, I have to push my F and Gb slides in a little bit when I have to tune up, not pull out. That would just make them flatter.

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:32 pm

I know exaclty what Harrison is getting at since I belive I tune exactly the same way on my 3BF but I've tried about 3 times to explain it and my lack-of-coffee today seems to be making me even less articulate than usual

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:51 pm

If you push in the Bb slide, the whole entire horn becomes sharper. Even if you play through the F side, it goes through the sharp Bb side. Push it in 100%. The horn is as sharp as possible, which is good. Bb is maybe 1-2 inches off the bumpers with your built in human TIS.

Now, when you want to play an F, you want to play it in closed first, all the way on the bumpers. Then you get the whole entire slide to use, out to low C on the slide. Even with the handslide closed 100%, F will be sharp. So you pull the F slide out 2-3 inches until it's in tune.

This is why bass trombonists complain that their F slides are too long -- those guys have their main Bb slide pulled out too far.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:15 pm

Normally if you tune an F-attachment so that C is in tune closed, F is a tad flat. We used to use the slide springs to help in this situation. Many bass trombonists tune low F to be in tune in 1st with the F valve and pull the handslide out a bit to play C in tune.

Harrison likes to play with the Bb slide in all the way. Now the F-attachment is actually a bit sharp playing F in 1st. Harrison now pulls the F attachment slide out just a bit so that F is in tune in 1st position. He still needs to play C in 1st position out just a bit, much like any bass trombonist.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:27 pm

That's a bit of a strange tuning, though. That means low F is the only note you're playing against the bumpers. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but it's a bit odd, you'd have to admit.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:00 pm

Harrison likes to tune Eb exactly at the bell wire, with 1st position always off the bumpers. It's what he likes and it works for him.

Personally, I use the Gb attachment for low F (in a short T2) so I can tune everything else at the bumpers.

Different strokes for different folks.

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:27 pm

I think ts slightly less strange than you may think, but not exactly common. I typically play my Bb slide all the way in or 98% of the way in. F attachment typically is pulled a little, but I tune so F is in first. Almost #F (but certainly not F#!). For me it puts Bb on the F side in a pretty comfortable place and I use it for that way more than I expect the typical player would.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:52 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:27 pm That's a bit of a strange tuning, though. That means low F is the only note you're playing against the bumpers. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but it's a bit odd, you'd have to admit.

Yes, this is it exactly. The best reason for tuning this way. Only a single note is limited by a hard wall that you physically can't go past, maybe two notes if you count the sneaky Ab in 1st. And if there really is a problem, 6th is nearly as convenient and fully tunable. I have heard players far better to me do tuning the other way, so that also works. Whatever works best is what you use.

It's more odd to me to have more than just F in tune in the closed first position. If you truly want to play in tune, you need to be able to bring the slide in further than first position Bb. There are any number of reasons for this, just intonation, equal temperament differences between partials, needing to temper scale or modal based moving lines, going flat in the upper or lower registers (some mouthpieces cause this), staying in tune with string creep, or anything else that goes sharp, playing Ab in first, etc.

I've heard a counter argument talking about all the possibilities of these things if I use alternate positions further on the slide, but my response is, like, why would I limit what I can do in the most convenient position, while still being able to use the alternate positions as well?

For me, having low F as the only note I can't pull in is the best compromise.

FWIW Bruce, I try to keep Ab at the bell with a tuner, if the trombone design works with that, but every note needs 30c of play, so it just depends.

calcbone · Post by **calcbone** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:54 pm

My two cents—back in grad. school, when I was playing a lot of quintet stuff and various other things all over the horn, I would alternate between the two F-attachment tuning styles. I found that if I tuned the F all the way in, I would lose low C at the end of the slide on that horn. So, I would prioritize based on what I was playing. Sometimes tune to F, sometimes to C almost all the way in to bring the low C in tune. That horn’s wrap was also just long enough to facilitate a true E pull, too, with the low B in tune, so I had a third option if I needed it

I used to practice the Grigoriev bass trombone etudes with the E-pull as well as with the C tuning on the ones that didn’t need the low B.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:25 am

jpwell wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:03 pm Helping a friend look for a horn. He is playing an 871 Yama. Plays first part, tired of sixth position. All I know is king 2BF’s. What other horns are there out there that fit the bill, small bore f att.
Thx

If he's playing an 891 now, there's not much that wouldn't be a significant downgrade for him. 3bf would be ok. Here's a suggestion that's maybe a little obtuse, but it may also fit. Yamaha 350C. It's 500/525 and it's a C trombone, but has a Bb attachment that is normally engaged. So C is in first position. And it's a little shorter, and a bit lighter than Bb/f horns. Its rare to find used.

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:33 am

YSL356 is also a great option; 500/525 as well.

jpwell · Post by **jpwell** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:58 pm

All great suggestions thx

asmith · Post by **asmith** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:30 pm

I would definitely suggest the 3BF like everyone else since they are pretty common as a used horn.
The timeline on Shires is being pushed out a little due to a factory expansion, plus the large financial commitment to get someone to one of those horns can be a burden.

If you're friend open to a .525" bore horn, you can open up a world of possibilities.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:00 am

Another vote for 3B/F here, not much you can't play on one of those.

Or, how about a couple of wildcards?

I exchanged mails with another forum member a while back about his 48h, for which he had a plug-in valve section made, looked very nice to me and could be used with a 6h also. I quite like the idea of having a removeable valve, after all not all gigs have those 6th position notes which are so bothersome to your friend. Let's just hope he doesn't comes across anything in 7th position before he finds a solution.

This .512 with F valve from K&H could be an interesting option: https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/en/produkt/ ... ier-512-f/

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:55 am

I don’t know price is targeted. There are some cheap Mercedes trombones on reverb.com and dillonmusic.com has two Olds ambassadors with f attachments. I keep a junkish Olds Super for windy outside gigs. I put a first valve trigger on an Olds Ambassador cornet that blows pretty good. I think that it is good enough for a gig. I have seen Olds Recordings with f attachments but I am not seeing any just now. Used 3bf trombones are reasonable and available.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:39 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:51 pm Now, when you want to play an F, you want to play it in closed first, all the way on the bumpers ...

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:27 pm That's a bit of a strange tuning, though. That means low F is the only note you're playing against the bumpers. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but it's a bit odd, you'd have to admit.

It's the same on my horn. The low f on the trigger is the only note I play on the bumper except from high d. The Bb above that trigger F is out quite a bit. I have a hard time to reach a b on the seventh position, but It's there just before the slide falls of. I guess Harrisson too play with "long positions".

Unlike Harrisson I have no low C on the end on the trigger. I play that note on T2 as a factitious note or I retune the slide to E, then its on the trigger. I tune to E because I'm more familiar to that instead of just pulling a bit. I retune if the note is long, if I ever need to play that note on my tenor.

My tuning slide is out about 5 mm for a=442 on most modern horns.

/Tom

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:54 pm

I guess I'm just confused as to why... You're giving up that room to tune F because...?

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:04 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:54 pm I guess I'm just confused as to why... You're giving up that room to tune F because...?

For me it has to do with the overall tuning of the horn. The Bb needs to be out a bit because that's my choice to be able to play "long positions". I also want the high d to be in reach on first so that one is also at the bumper. Then the trigger F on T1 needs to be tuned to the bumper (and the trigger slide pushed all in) or else that note will be flat and the horn will not be in tune with itself (when I play). I noticed this once and that was what solved a puzzle for me.

Sum: My trigger in the slide is pushed all in and the tmain uningslide is out about 5 mm for a=442.

If I want an in tune F on T1 then I have no low C on T6. If I tune T1 flat I loose the F on T1 but then I get the low C on T6. I don't know if this is the same for others, but it is sure what I do.

/Tom

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm

My low F is the same first position as all my others, a bit out from the bumper. Most of my horns are short enough in the F attachment for that. I just don't know why I would tune it to be all the way against the bumpers, it's not as if that will give me a C in 7th.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm My low F is the same first position as all my others, a bit out from the bumper. Most of my horns are short enough in the F attachment for that. I just don't know why I would tune it to be all the way against the bumpers, it's not as if that will give me a C in 7th.

Where do you play the Bb above? I want that note far away from the bumper. Maybe you don't? If I play that Bb closer to the bumper then i could pull the trigger slide. It works too, but I don't play like that. I think It has to do with how we want our horns to be tuned on the straight horn and the tuning of the valve is a consequence. I'm a doubler but mainly a tenor player so the straight horn is my main concern most often. Then we might also play different models of horns too with different designs and possibilities to pull the trigger. I play only OLD horns.

/Tom

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:21 pm

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm My low F is the same first position as all my others, a bit out from the bumper. Most of my horns are short enough in the F attachment for that. I just don't know why I would tune it to be all the way against the bumpers, it's not as if that will give me a C in 7th.
Where do you play the Bb above? I want that note far away from the bumper. Maybe you don't? If I play that Bb closer to the bumper then i could pull the trigger slide. It works too, but I don't play like that. I think It has to do with how we want our horns to be tuned on the straight horn and the tuning of the valve is a consequence. I'm a doubler but mainly a tenor player so the straight horn is my main concern most often. Then we might also play different models of horns too with different possibilities to pull the trigger. I play only OLD horns.

/Tom

I tune it a bit out from the bumper, maybe a couple cm on all my horns. This gives me plenty of room for flat partials or sharp players around me in a pinch. I keep my attachment notes in the same place, for the same reason.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm My low F is the same first position as all my others, a bit out from the bumper. Most of my horns are short enough in the F attachment for that. I just don't know why I would tune it to be all the way against the bumpers, it's not as if that will give me a C in 7th.

Yes, I agree. To play the F against the bumper on T1 does not make it possible to play an in-tune low C on T6. That is not my reason to tune F at the bumper, for me it is another reason. If I want a low C on T6 I have to pull the trigger slide or lip the C down on T6, and that is also possible.

I want an intune F on T1 and thats why I have to play it against the bumper. If I could push the tuningslide more then I could play off the bumper, but that is not possible on my old horns. It might be a difference in design?

/Tom

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:38 pm

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:35 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:07 pm My low F is the same first position as all my others, a bit out from the bumper. Most of my horns are short enough in the F attachment for that. I just don't know why I would tune it to be all the way against the bumpers, it's not as if that will give me a C in 7th.
Yes, I agree. To play the F against the bumper on T1 does not make it possible to play an in-tune low C on T6. That is not my reason to tune F at the bumper, for me it is another reason. If I want a C on T6 I have to pull the trigger slide or lip the C down on T6, and that is also possible.

I want a intune F on T1 and thats why I have to play it against the bumper. If I could push the tuningslide more then I could play off the bumper, but that is not possible on my old horns. It might be a difference in design?

/Tom

Most of my horns are old too!