TR183 question

[bigbandbone]

Can the single valve TR183 be pulled to E tuning. Can it play an in tune low B like the 72H?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

[imsevimse]

No

[bigbandbone]

Succinct and to the point. Thanks

[imsevimse]

Can the single valve TR183 be pulled to E tuning. Can it play an in tune low B like the 72H?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

A more complete answer is: It can be pulled to E but that will not get an in tune B on T6.

/Tom

[nopos]

Yes it can, at least the early production specimens from the 1970s. The TR183 (also known as the George Roberts model) I used to own had a both a slightly longer hand-slide and a longer f-tuning slide compared to my other Holtons (169, TR185 and E185) making it perfectly capable of a long E-pull an an in-tune low B

[modelerdc]

The TR183 that I used to own could be pulled a little past E, giving low C around 6th and the long slide allowed an in tune B in flat 7th.

[imsevimse]

Yes it can, at least the early production specimens from the 1970s. The TR183 (also known as the George Roberts model) I used to own had a both a slightly longer hand-slide and a longer f-tuning slide compared to my other Holtons (169, TR185 and E185) making it perfectly capable of a long E-pull an an in-tune low B

Yes, sorry. I have to take that back. It IS possible to play an intune B on T6. I just checked my TR-183 from 1974. The trigger can be pulled to a very, very flat E and that gives infact a B at the end of the slide. I apologise, because since my arsenal of horns is huge I thought I knew this but memory sometimes fails. I do own two other single valved Holtons too, the TR185 and the 169, and they are not the same.
Now when I checked I pulled the triggerslide as far as I possibly could and then if I reach as far as I can my TR-183 has a B just the end of the slide. When I check this I compare the straight on 7:th: with the same B on the trigger T6 since the lower octave is so easiy to lip in tune I don't use it for this comparison.

It's a very special horn. I should use it more often.

Sorry,, my mistake!

/Tom

[Savio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KNOdK ... 5g&index=5

George Roberts with a Conn 70h and in theory it isn't possible. I can't hit a clean C even on my 70h most of the times. My teacher played the C with one trigger most of the time. Always in tune. He had an old Holton with two valves so it can be done on the Holton 183. Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

[ithinknot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KNOdK ... 5g&index=5

George Roberts with a Conn 70h and in theory it isn't possible. I can't hit a clean C even on my 70h most of the times. My teacher played the C with one trigger most of the time. Always in tune. He had an old Holton with two valves so it can be done on the Holton 183. Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

Getting off topic here... but it depends on the 70H. On mine, the valve wrap is significantly overlength, such that fully closed, low C is in normal 7th. C in the staff is just possible with the springs fully compressed, but no low F in 1st.

There's an engraved mark (deep and crisp and even, looks factory) on the lower leg of the F slide at exactly the pull length that puts low C in normal 6th, and low B in the flat 7th made possible by the long slide (ie around an inch and a half beyond normal 7th, but still with a non-precarious amount of stocking left).

Pulled dangerously fully, it's within a half inch of Eb.

[Savio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KNOdK ... 5g&index=5

George Roberts with a Conn 70h and in theory it isn't possible. I can't hit a clean C even on my 70h most of the times. My teacher played the C with one trigger most of the time. Always in tune. He had an old Holton with two valves so it can be done on the Holton 183. Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

Getting off topic here... but it depends on the 70H. On mine, the valve wrap is significantly overlength, such that fully closed, low C is in normal 7th. C in the staff is just possible with the springs fully compressed, but no low F in 1st.

There's an engraved mark (deep and crisp and even, looks factory) on the lower leg of the F slide at exactly the pull length that puts low C in normal 6th, and low B in the flat 7th made possible by the long slide (ie around an inch and a half beyond normal 7th, but still with a non-precarious amount of stocking left).

Pulled dangerously fully, it's within a half inch of Eb.

I believe all 70h has that long slide. Why I can't do it all the time is because of lack of technique. But in that link above its both C and B. Then I begin to wonder how GR did it. And it sounds clear and in tune.... Then I think its possible to get a C on any horn, but don't know how. With out pulling the F tuning slide out. GR told he lip it down, then he must had some strong lips and good ears? And slide technique?

Leif

[GabrielRice]

Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

When Ray needed to play a very full low C he would pull his F slide out a little over 2 inches to put that note squarely in 7th position (or T6 if you prefer). He knew the positions of the other valve notes in that tuning well enough to play it that way for a while if he needed.

I practice the same on my single valve basses. Where it works for me puts in the same position as the A a step below, E slightly in from there. Eb is in straight ahead 3rd position. I've learned where D and Db go. 1st position on the valve is essentially unusable, though if you normally play off the bumper you can bring the C all the way in and lip up a bit.

[harrisonreed]

I think all this is possible, guys. I play F in first and C in T6 without any problems all the time on my tenor. The key is in the relative length of the hand slide.

If you have the main Bb tuning slide pushed in all the way, the hand slide will be as relatively long as possible to the bell section. You get bonus length if you physically make the handslide longer, and the added bonus of that also requiring an even shorter bell section, which then makes the slide even LONGER relative to the bell. I don't know that the Edwards slide is particularly longer than other trombones, but it is long enough for me. The point is, in this configuration, the hand slide is as long as it can possibly be relative to the Bb bell section.

Now, if you tune the F attachment to be in tune with a tuner precisely at the bumpers, you may have to lip it up on some notes, but that isn't a really stressful note to do that on. The F slide must be pulled out to tune it, which now SHORTENS the relative length of the handslide, however there should still be enough length along the entire inner tube to play a C out on the end of the stockings.

[imsevimse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KNOdK ... 5g&index=5

George Roberts with a Conn 70h and in theory it isn't possible. I can't hit a clean C even on my 70h most of the times. My teacher played the C with one trigger most of the time. Always in tune. He had an old Holton with two valves so it can be done on the Holton 183. Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

A good clip. Nice sound and he did it on a single valve. My bet is he used false tones for those b's, but he isn't around to be asked unfortunately.

/Tom

[greenbean]

I think all this is possible, guys. I play F in first and C in T6 without any problems all the time on my tenor. The key is in the relative length of the hand slide.
...

Is the *relative* handslide length important in getting a low C that you can reach or is the *total* length of the horn? You seem to be saying that my low C will be more reachable with a shorter bell section. That is not my experience.

[harrisonreed]

I think all this is possible, guys. I play F in first and C in T6 without any problems all the time on my tenor. The key is in the relative length of the hand slide.
...

Is the *relative* handslide length important in getting a low C that you can reach or is the *total* length of the horn? You seem to be saying that my low C will be more reachable with a shorter bell section. That is not my experience.

I don't make trombones, so I'm probably out of my depth here. I think that a shorter bell section will let you have a longer slide to begin with, at the very least.

I might just have a magic slide length.

[ithinknot]

Is the *relative* handslide length important in getting a low C that you can reach or is the *total* length of the horn? You seem to be saying that my low C will be more reachable with a shorter bell section. That is not my experience.

I don't make trombones, so I'm probably out of my depth here. I think that a shorter bell section will let you have a longer slide to begin with, at the very least.

This is getting a little confused. At the design stage, yes, a shorter bell allows a longer slide, which obviously helps.

But this:

If you have the main Bb tuning slide pushed in all the way, the hand slide will be as relatively long as possible to the bell section.

doesn't mean what you think... Once the engineering parameters are set, there's an external pitch standard with which you have to comply, so overall length - regardless of distribution - is the only thing that matters at this point. Sending the whole instrument sharp does make the hand slide relatively longer as a percentage of total length, but that's only useful re low C if the pitch standard is moving higher at the same time.

Let's say that in your preferred tuning (Ab at bell, Bb ~1.5 off the bumpers, low F hard against the bumpers, low C at the very end of the slide) your main TS is closed and your valve slide is pulled 1.5. Now reverse that - main TS pulled 1.5, valve slide closed. The low F to low C positions stay the same. Either the hand slide was long enough or it wasn't. This second tuning doesn't suit how you play (and likely makes the intonation of the instrument worse overall, and has no other advantages, I'd agree) but it doesn't change this particular issue.

[ithinknot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KNOdK ... 5g&index=5

George Roberts with a Conn 70h and in theory it isn't possible. I can't hit a clean C even on my 70h most of the times. My teacher played the C with one trigger most of the time. Always in tune. He had an old Holton with two valves so it can be done on the Holton 183. Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

A good clip. Nice sound and he did it on a single valve. My bet is he used false tones for those b's, but he isn't around to be asked unfortunately.

/Tom

I don't understand why this is mysterious... he's playing an instrument that easily has a low B on the slide (flat E pull on the valve, long hand slide).

[harrisonreed]

You're right. It's all about the slide length

[imsevimse]

A good clip. Nice sound and he did it on a single valve. My bet is he used false tones for those b's, but he isn't around to be asked unfortunately.

/Tom

I don't understand why this is mysterious... he's playing an instrument that easily has a low B on the slide (flat E pull on the valve, long hand slide).

Not mysterious at all. He could have done it many ways but I've read interviews with him where he said he managed to reach the low C and when a B occured he faked it using factitious notes. Thats why my bet is he played it like that; because of the interview and because that it is possible, and not incredibly hard either. I can do it and especially manageable if the B is short which it is in this case. I bet most professional single bass players could do a B like that before the double valved basses came around. Double valved basses is sure a great invention and has made things easier for players that use them but the double valved basses also meant that the skills of factitious notes was not nessecary anymore.

/Tom

[Tbarh]

Getting off topic here... but it depends on the 70H. On mine, the valve wrap is significantly overlength, such that fully closed, low C is in normal 7th. C in the staff is just possible with the springs fully compressed, but no low F in 1st.

There's an engraved mark (deep and crisp and even, looks factory) on the lower leg of the F slide at exactly the pull length that puts low C in normal 6th, and low B in the flat 7th made possible by the long slide (ie around an inch and a half beyond normal 7th, but still with a non-precarious amount of stocking left).

Pulled dangerously fully, it's within a half inch of Eb.

I believe all 70h has that long slide. Why I can't do it all the time is because of lack of technique. But in that link above its both C and B. Then I begin to wonder how GR did it. And it sounds clear and in tune.... Then I think its possible to get a C on any horn, but don't know how. With out pulling the F tuning slide out. GR told he lip it down, then he must had some strong lips and good ears? And slide technique?

Leif

No, not all 70H have the Long slide... The one i owned ('34 Model) did not... Neither did it have the Long hand slide.. If I would have kept it i would have my tech build a plug in D.. Like i have on my Holton E185.... Best invention since sliced bread..

Trond

[imsevimse]

Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

When Ray needed to play a very full low C he would pull his F slide out a little over 2 inches to put that note squarely in 7th position (or T6 if you prefer). He knew the positions of the other valve notes in that tuning well enough to play it that way for a while if he needed.

I practice the same on my single valve basses. Where it works for me puts in the same position as the A a step below, E slightly in from there. Eb is in straight ahead 3rd position. I've learned where D and Db go. 1st position on the valve is essentially unusable, though if you normally play off the bumper you can bring the C all the way in and lip up a bit.

That's a tuning I used before on a single valved bass. I pulled about the length of my pinky-finger whenever there was a need for long strong C's. The problem then for me was to nail those D's and D-flats because I did not practice the other positions enough with that tuning. I usually pushed the tuningslide back when done with those C's.
I have since a year back changed and now pull all the way to E instead, and I practice all positions like that. As you said the F on T1 is not usable anyway with that shorter pull. The reason for me to use E is simply my Conn 73H came with the second valve in E and I have done playing like that in the past on tenor.
Main reason is there are enough slidepositions in my head already and I can not learn them ALL. There are too many different setups possible on all my basstrombones.

The long E-pull almost to E-flat on my TR-183 was a surprise. That was good news. This forum is great!!!

/Tom

[Savio]

Ray Premru did it! How? I haven't figured it out yet....

Leif

When Ray needed to play a very full low C he would pull his F slide out a little over 2 inches to put that note squarely in 7th position (or T6 if you prefer). He knew the positions of the other valve notes in that tuning well enough to play it that way for a while if he needed.

I practice the same on my single valve basses. Where it works for me puts in the same position as the A a step below, E slightly in from there. Eb is in straight ahead 3rd position. I've learned where D and Db go. 1st position on the valve is essentially unusable, though if you normally play off the bumper you can bring the C all the way in and lip up a bit.

I will try that method. What did he do when there was a B? Pull it all out? I tried that a lot but find it hard to get used to.

Tom; can you lip down if necessary? GR told he did in a interview I read. I tried that but it doesn't sound good when I do it.

Leif

[imsevimse]

Tom; can you lip down if necessary? GR told he did in a interview I read. I tried that but it doesn't sound good when I do it.

Leif

I play the B on T3 like Sven Larsson at this forum has taught me. This works well for me when the notes are short, but if a B is a longer note, like a whole note then I change to a double because that's easier. Now the TR-183 gives a possibility to pull the trigger even further so I think I will try that now instead. When it comes to lipping notes I can lip C in tune if I tune T1 fo F and the same with a B if I tune T1 to E but the problem then is sound. I think that can be heard because sound change when I do that. For me factitious notes is a better choice. I've played the factitious notes daily since 1980 when I first started to work at them and they work pretty good now.
In the beginning they were a mystery to me and I could not do them at all, but after a while they became more steady and today they sound just like normal notes when I play them.

/Tom

[GabrielRice]

I don't remember Ray doing false tones, but I think he could pull to E and get a pretty good low B on his 169. In his London days I think he usually had a double valve instrument around just in case he needed it.

One like this in fact: https://reverb.com/item/25583652-boosey ... ss-tromboe

I know he wrote Prelude & Dance for an independent Bb/F/G instrument and first performed it on one.

[Savio]

I don't remember Ray doing false tones, but I think he could pull to E and get a pretty good low B on his 169. In his London days I think he usually had a double valve instrument around just in case he needed it.

One like this in fact: https://reverb.com/item/25583652-boosey ... ss-tromboe

I know he wrote Prelude & Dance for an independent Bb/F/G instrument and first performed it on one.

Thanks a lot! Thats why in all the videos I seen, Premru play the low F always in 6th positions? I use a double valve when needed. For me the single valve is ok most of the time but sometimes its impossible for (for me). Strange George Roberts did it so eksellent many times on the Rieddle and early Sinatra recordings. And that was the 70h.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0-JHWFXuZI

In this one I suspect he used a double valve? After The Conn period he used a lot of instruments, also double valved sometimes?

Leif

[imsevimse]

For what I've read he did not use double valved basses much. I do not think he did in that recording either. I know it must be a mystery how anyone could learn how to make those C's and B's as factitious notes to sound just like normal notes. I do understand this is hard to believe today. I can say that in the 80ies when I studied with Sven Larsson and he was at his best you could NEVER tell a difference from the normal notes when he played those factitious notes. I guess it's hard to believe today when that skill is mostly forgotten. I can not recall anyone over here who can do them like he did back then. Today they do not know how to make them sound good, and they don't even bother. We are a handfull of his students who was cought by those skills and for some reason decided to spend time to learn them. Unfortunately I'm probably one of the last tromboneplayers over here who uses them for real. I know people sure use them in their warm-ups but they do not use them in real situations and they usually do not care to get a good sound on them. I do use them regularly in my playing and they work for me, but.... what Sven did is so much better. He played them ANY nuance, ANY articulation, ANY speed and for long as was needed (using circular breathing). He is one of a kind over here. This Is something you learn if you speak to any tromboneplayer over here thats over 50 years of age (younger people do not know) . I know George was a big inspiration to him and I think George could do those factitious notes too, and with no problem. They were no mystery back then and today I'm a living proof they can be done and I'm a tenor player, not even a professional bass tromboneplayer, but what's important " I have an interest in learning them."

/Tom

[Savio]

For what I've read he did not use double valved basses much. I do not think he did in that recording either. I know it must be a mystery how anyone could learn how to make those C's and B's as factitious notes to sound just like normal notes. I do understand this is hard to believe today. I can say that in the 80ies when I studied with Sven Larsson and he was at his best you could NEVER tell a difference from the normal notes when he played those factitious notes. I guess it's hard to believe today when that skill is mostly forgotten. I can not recall anyone over here who can do them like he did back then. Today they do not know how to make them sound good, and they don't even bother. We are a handfull of his students who was cought by those skills and for some reason decided to spend time to learn them. Unfortunately I'm probably one of the last tromboneplayers over here who uses them for real. I know people sure use them in their warm-ups but they do not use them in real situations and they usually do not care to get a good sound on them. I do use them regularly in my playing and they work for me, but.... what Sven did is so much better. He played them ANY nuance, ANY articulation, ANY speed and for long as was needed (using circular breathing). He is one of a kind over here. This Is something you learn if you speak to any tromboneplayer over here thats over 50 years of age (younger people do not know) . I know George was a big inspiration to him and I think George could do those factitious notes too, and with no problem. They were no mystery back then and today I'm a living proof they can be done and I'm a tenor player, not even a professional bass tromboneplayer, but what's important " I have an interest in learning them."

/Tom

I have some recordings of him both when he was in Germany and in USA. Also from his band in Sweden with a jazz singer. He is on this forum sometimes, I thought of take a lesson with him because I have relatives in Sweden and is there every summer. But the sheep beer and holyday has been in the way.....and my relatives is in Mjölby. Fare away from Stockholm.

Leif

[bellend]

I believe all 70h has that long slide. Why I can't do it all the time is because of lack of technique. But in that link above its both C and B. Then I begin to wonder how GR did it. And it sounds clear and in tune.... Then I think its possible to get a C on any horn, but don't know how. With out pulling the F tuning slide out. GR told he lip it down, then he must had some strong lips and good ears? And slide technique?

Leif

The 70H changed a bit through the years, see attached ( sadly, none of them are mine )

BellEnd