Question for the Shires experts

[MrHCinDE]

I’ve just acquired a Shires bell which is stamped with 2R, no further characters. From what I can tell, that should be a two-piece unsoldered bell in red brass.

Would it be right to assume that it is medium weight since nothing is written to the contrary?

It doesn’t really matter since I bought it already but how would it differ to a 2RVE?

What I really like is that you can clearly see signs of the process and craftsmenship of how it was made, the join of the two pieces and the longitudinal join/tacks (is tacks the right word?) along the stem.

[Matt K]

Their new website doesn't do a good job of indicating it; they used to have a section where they essentially said "no letter" or something to that effect. There are several bell weighs for Shires. Some they may not offer any more ut you might find out in the wild, and there are possibly some not listed:

• XLW
• LW
• M
• (No letter)
• HW

The "2" indicates, as you noted, that it is a two-piece bell w/o a soldered bell bead. The R indicates it is red brass. In the absence of other markings, that is a "regular" weight bell. When they started making bells in the 90s, heavy bells were popular, so the "regular" weight is actually slightly heavier than other manufacturers "regular" weight but I don't know if I've ever seen gauge information published about it.

I'm not sure they've ever published what the differences are between VE and whatever the closest corrolary is. I have a 2RVET7 that I quite like though and when I compare it to other bells, I suspect it's closer to a medium weight bell. So a little more responsive and colorful but probably redlines a little quicker than a regular weight bell. The bell is supposed to be patterned on Elkhart Conns.

The seams you are talking about where the two pieces of the bell are brazed together. Other manufacturers also have these or similar markings but they may be in a different location. This thread has some information that you might find interesting: https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=160156

[BGuttman]

VE stands for "Vintage Elkhart", which was Steve's attempt to simulate the thickness profile in an Elkhart Conn bell (it's a little thinner where the flare starts to expand).

[MrHCinDE]

Thanks both.

Here’s a couple of photos, the 2nd shows the model number and some examples of the seam and what looks to me to be some remnants of tacks which were possibly used to form the initial stem before it was all brazed and hammered out. I saw a video once of the bell making process which showed these steps but can’t find it right now.

3A2DF111-785C-4C28-8FC9-FD2B933F2E4F.jpeg

5ABE2450-BA80-4C47-8CCC-53EB22A6563B.jpeg

I’ll be getting it adapted to fit onto a frame based on a straight Bach 42. The previous owner had used it with a customised Bach 42BO so the tuning slide receiver should hopefully already be suitable to accept a Bach tuning slide. I’m expecting the fittings for braces will probably need to be moved or even replaced. Once it’s all done, I’ll report back for anyone interested.

In the same deal I got a German-style bell flare in very thin gold brass with a wide nickel Kranz, possibly a Kruspe but without any markings to confirm. That was also setup by the previous owner to use with their Bach 42BO so will be getting adapted for my 42 frame as well.

I’ll end up with a straight/F-Valve convertible horn with options for the original late 80s Bach yellow brass bell, the Shires 2R and the German bell once it’s all done.

[Matt K]

That is a beautiful patina.

Just a heads up that those are very different bells. If for some reason you don't like the slide (I'm presuming its a 42 slide), you may find getting a 2nd slide helps the 2R become a little easier to play. I really like narrow slides with my 2RVET7. For Bach style horns, the Bach slide, unsurprisingly, works great. (Typically, Bach slides have not only a wide crook, but an oversized, bass crook).

[GabrielRice]

The standard weight (no letter) is heavier than medium weight, and yes, that's because heavy bells were popular when the company was started.

VE is most similar to LW.

The seams are made by notching the sheet metal, overlapping where the notches are, and brazing (essentially higher temperature soldering). Then the seam is pressed to flatten it. You can see the seams more clearly on red or gold brass than on yellow brass because the brazing material is close to yellow.

[MrHCinDE]

That is a beautiful patina.

Yeah, it sealed the deal for me, looks like a smoky campfire with the raw red brass.

Thanks for the heads-up about the slide. Since my 42 is in the shop I had a quick blow on it with a Conn slide (friction fit!) and it played great so maybe a narrow slide will be the way to go.

My 42 slide is an LT so although still having a bass crook I’m hoping it will have a bit of extra liveliness to get the best out of the 2R, I already like it with the Bach bell! The German bell, who knows? I have an option of a lightweight Yamaha bass slide if I need to go bigger but might keep an eye out for an Edwards narrow 0.547” slide once my funds have been replenished.

[MrHCinDE]

Thanks Gabe,

What you say about the notching makes a lot of sense. So there aren’t tacks or something, you would just be pressing the two sheets together every couple of inches with some sort of pliers or other similar tool?

Like I said, I’m really fascinated with being able to see signs of the various processes that were used during construction. Every time I look at the bell it reminds me of the skill and effort that went into making it!

[Jmloudon]

Thanks Gabe,

What you say about the notching makes a lot of sense. So there aren’t tacks or something, you would just be pressing the two sheets together every couple of inches with some sort of pliers or other similar tool?

The “How It’s Made” trombone video was filmed at Shires and you can see a great example of the bell forming and rolling between 0:50-1:00.

[MrHCinDE]

The “How It’s Made” trombone video was filmed at Shires and you can see a great example of the bell forming and rolling between 0:50-1:00.

Love it, thanks for posting! The notching is now 100% clear to me.

In the meantime I found the video I was talking about also:

[Jmloudon]

Cool video! Thanks for sharing.