Bell to slide gap/distance

[sgreatwood]

Hi all,

One of the reasons I don't often play my 88H is that the bell is closer to the slide than all my other horns. I've never had access to other 88s to compare so am curious about this. I'd love to play it more often, even though it also blows very differently to all my other horns...

There was an earlier thread that started similar to this but let's get some more data:

On large bore tenor and bass trombones (could probably include smaller horns too) - what is the distance between your bell and slide?

Here's a survey link and I'll post a summary in a week or so. https://forms.office.com/Pages/Response ... RFOFdGTy4u

Will be interesting to see trends and also to compare between different eras of the same horn production.

Thanks for any time and data you can provide.

Simon

[Burgerbob]

Bell rim to the lower slide tube right next to it?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

When I build customized trombones, I always aim for that distance to be 1 5/16”. I have found that distance to be very practical for performance and good for aesthetics. Obviously, that is purely my opinion. I would be interested to hear what other technicians consider to be the optimal distance.

In my repair work, I have found that trombones that have fallen while on trombone stands often have reduced distances between the bell rim and lower slide. Many times, the dents in the slide and bell are addressed, but the rim to slide distance is not corrected. Additionally….. when dents are burnished out of a gooseneck, it can change the trajectory of the slide receiver, which will make the slide closer to the bell (I have seen this a lot on Conn trombones). The technician should check (but some don’t) the distance between the bell rim and lower slide to make sure that is back to normal standards (if there is such a thing).

[Posaunus]

SGreatwood,
Have you compared your 88H to other 88H trombones?
Perhaps your slide has been "nudged" out of position, as suggested by Brian. Thousands of 88Hs out there, with few complaints about this issue.

[Blabberbucket]

Almost certainly a bent/damaged receiver and rotor knuckle.

[hyperbolica]

A long time ago my 88h got whacked somehow, and there were some crinkles under the bell at the diamond gusset. It wasn't dented, it was bent. It got repaired, but the tech just removed the crinkles without straightening the bell, so my bell rim was too close to the slide. I eventually got this sorted out. Just to say a too-close bell is definitely distracting.

Recently I bought another horn from a forum member with the same bell to slide problem, but the opposite cause. The slide-side F valve knuckle was crinkled, so the side must have been whacked at some point. I asked the seller about the bell to slide distance, he assured me it was good. But it isn't. And I didn't pay "on the low side" for the horn. I haven't made a big deal about it because the horn is a good player, but it definitely has a decreased bell to slide distance, and it is distracting when I play. I'll probably get it fixed because I like the instrument, but this goes on the list as one of those things you need to check out especially when you buy a used horn.

To the OP, I'm kind of eager to see the results of your survey. I added a few, hope others have added some as well.

[Mamaposaune]

I just entered my Conn 88H (1 1/4") didn't measure my Bachs, but I think they're pretty close to the same.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

SGreatwood,
Have you compared your 88H to other 88H trombones?
Perhaps your slide has been "nudged" out of position, as suggested by Brian. Thousands of 88Hs out there, with few complaints about this issue.

Oh…..quite the opposite for me! Prior to learning technical and repair skills, this was a huge complaint of mine about Conns. I remember going to Dillon’s many years ago and trying many Elkhart Conns. A couple of them were great playing horns. Why didn’t I buy them?…….I couldn’t get past the fact that the slides were so close to the bell rim.

These days, such an issue is less of a problem. I usually end up rebuilding most horns that I buy for myself.

[hyperbolica]

I just entered my Conn 88H (1 1/4") didn't measure my Bachs, but I think they're pretty close to the same.

Most of my horns were the same (1 1/4"), except my 8h (1"), my Olds Recording (1 5/16") and my 1662i bass (1.75)

[Mamaposaune]

Is there a way for all of us to access the survey? Maybe it's just me that can't view the results? I did enter my 88H but would like to see the others.

[sgreatwood]

Sorry folks - my non-trombone work got in the way. Once work slows up next week I hope to get all my horns measured but there's a survey summary link below. Frustratingly, the 88H is hardest to get to. For interest sake, the 36B on my stand right now is 26mm, or just over an inch. For those that asked, the Conn hasn't had any damage since I bought it in about 2002 or so but not sure about before that - no sign of damage on it. Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far.

https://forms.office.com/Pages/Analysis ... RFOFdGTy4u

[sgreatwood]

Urgh. The summary is rubbish, sorry. Of the 8-series, both 88H were at 1.25, the 8H at 1.0 inch. The two 1.75s were 9.5" Kanstul basses but the other 9.5 bells varied from 1-1.375 gap.

0.75
1
1
1
1.125
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.3
1.325
1.325
1.375
1.75
1.75

[Posaunus]

So apparently "normal" Conn 88H slides are NOT abnormally close to their bells?

[AtomicClock]

In my repair work, I have found that trombones that have fallen while on trombone stands often have reduced distances between the bell rim and lower slide. Many times, the dents in the slide and bell are addressed, but the rim to slide distance is not corrected.
...
The technician should check (but some don’t) the distance between the bell rim and lower slide to make sure that is back to normal standards (if there is such a thing).

This happened to me while the thread was in progress. My slide was fixed, but the tech did not check the distance. I guess that's fair, since all I requested was a slide repair, and the story of the stand falling over didn't get onto the repair ticket. So back to the shop we go!

[Mamaposaune]

I just entered my husband's Conn 79H, which measures 3/4". I played it the other day and found it a bit annoying to have the bell that close to the slide, but he has not complained.

[dbwhitaker]

How easy is it for a tech to modify this gap? I recently acquired a Kanstul 1670 and the gap is 1.75. I'm still struggling to figure out a way to hold it comfortably and I'm wondering if reducing this distance might help. I didn't really understand why this horn feels so big but maybe this is a clue.

[ithinknot]

How easy is it for a tech to modify this gap? I recently acquired a Kanstul 1670 and the gap is 1.75. I'm still struggling to figure out a way to hold it comfortably and I'm wondering if reducing this distance might help. I didn't really understand why this horn feels so big but maybe this is a clue.

Just adjust the trigger. Either that, or you don't like the front/back balance in which case a counterweight might help.

[dbwhitaker]

How easy is it for a tech to modify this gap? I recently acquired a Kanstul 1670 and the gap is 1.75. I'm still struggling to figure out a way to hold it comfortably and I'm wondering if reducing this distance might help. I didn't really understand why this horn feels so big but maybe this is a clue.

Just adjust the trigger. Either that, or you don't like the front/back balance in which case a counterweight might help.

It doesn't seem to be a problem with front/back balance -- that seems ok. It feels like the bell is heavy and that it takes a lot of effort to prevent it from "rotating outward and down". The bell brace is slightly longer than the bell brace on my Holton (for instance) but it feels like it is much longer, making it feel like the bell is much farther away from my hand.

I have a bad left hand and holding almost any horn is a struggle. Maybe the Kanstul just isn't right for me.

[AtomicClock]

Try holding the slide closer to horizontal (straightening or flexing your wrist), or closing the slide/bell angle below 90 degrees.