Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

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tbdana
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Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

One of the big philosophical divides between legit trombone players and jazz trombone players has to do with the cleanliness of playing. I'll start with some general observations (stereotypes?) that have a good bit of truth to them.

Classical players work hard to make their playing sound perfect. Perfection in tone, intonation, dynamics, articulations, releases, posture, breathing, etc. Every note they play has to be perfectly clean and played with conscious intent. They study arcane minutiae from hundreds of years ago in a quest to remain loyal to what they believe is long dead composers' original intent. They look down their noses at jazz players for their sloppy playing and poor tone (but to be fair, legit players look down their noses at everyone ;) ).

Jazz players care little for technical perfection, and prize creativity, emotion, passion, and musical ideas and development. Their playing is immediate, improvisational, and impassioned, sacrificing technical perfection for instantaneous musical adventures. New ideas, uniqueness, and moving the music forward prevails over the notion of faithfully reproducing earlier works. Indeed, playing something the way it was played 50-100 years ago is to be avoided. Been there, done that. Newness, progress, and individualism are prized. They think classical players sound wooden, sterile, staid, stuck up, and lack facility.

For some reason, trombone culture generally dictates that we land in one of those two camps. This is an argument for blending the classical ethic into the jazz/pop/rock/commercial realm.

I think the acceptance of sloppy playing in jazz tromboning is nothing more than an abject surrender to the difficulty of the instrument. It's "too hard" to play intricate, technical, and improvised passages cleanly, so trombonists have simply given up and claimed their lack of ability to play cleanly as unimportant or, even worse, detrimental to their musical expression. Sloppiness is claimed as a feature, not a bug.

I maintain that 99% of those who excuse sloppiness in jazz/commercial playing would play cleanly if they could, but they can't. So in the same way KFC markets their greasy-ass chicken as "finger-licking good!" to turn a detriment into a perceived advantage, jazz trombonists market their sloppy-ass jazz playing as a feature of the idiom, not a lack in their ability.

Much of what makes trombone jazz essentially unlistenable to both other musicians and the general public, alike -- and the reason why you don't have trombones fronting jazz groups (though trombonists seem to think this is a mystery) -- is the rampant sloppiness. To me, it doesn't matter how awesome your ideas are if you can't play them well. Stumbling through them does not improve them, and listeners hear the whole, not just the part you want them to, and your lack of proficiency on your instrument destroys the listenability for them.

Let me dismiss the inevitable excuses: Yes, intentional and mindful imperfections can enhance jazz expression if used sparingly and for a discrete purpose or effect, but 99.9999% of the time it's neither intentional nor mindful, it's just sloppy. Yes, occasionally a mistake actually makes a solo better, but that is never predictable and it's like catching lightning in a bottle it's so rare. Yes, perfection can be boring and sterile, but only when it is mere technique, alone, without musicality, which again is sacrificing one aspect for another when both are needed.

If I could wave a magic wand, I'd send all jazz trombonists into the practice room and lock the door for five years, and make them learn to play like classical trombonists. But jazz players need to go further. They need to develop their technique and facility to the point where they can play all those great improvisational licks cleanly and musically, and not let slop and garbage detract from what would otherwise be great playing. In essence, jazz players should develop the classical ethic and skills required for good, clean playing of the instrument, and then push that forward into the kind of technique and facility required to play jazz ideas that are routinely played with great clarity by sax players, pianists, trumpeters, guitarists, and the rest of the jazz world.

Keep going with acceptance of all the slop and garbage in jazz tromboning and you'll render the instrument extinct in jazz. It's almost there, already. No one wants to listen to the crap in your sound, they want to hear good, clean music.

If you don't have great facility, simplify your jazz ideas to not exceed your technical ability. Develop your technique to the point where you can play intricate and lightning fast licks cleanly and with the precision of a valved or keyed instrument. Make the overall sound of what you're playing the top priority, and refuse to sacrifice either cleanliness or passion. Make glisses, slop, clipped notes and clams the rare and intentional exception to a vast ocean of clean playing.

And quit trying to convince people that your sloppy-ass technique and crap sound are a feature. You're only fooling yourselves.

Okay, that's my opinion. You may now commence firing. :)
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Many of my favorite jazz trombonists are technically masterful, not sloppy. Many of them (in fact) have absolutely no problem with jumping into a symphonic context and kicking butt.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:17 am Many of my favorite jazz trombonists are technically masterful, not sloppy. Many of them (in fact) have absolutely no problem with jumping into a symphonic context and kicking butt.
As it should be.

If only that were the general rule rather than the exception.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

And if you don't think it can be done, listen to this.

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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: an argument

Post by EriKon »

Curious to hear what spark set off that rant xD
I personally never would excuse unprecise or sloppiness in my own playing and I agree fully with the sentiment that jazz trombone doesn't mean it has to be sloppy. That's bullshit for sure.

Something that goes against that is that I personally prefer to listen to players who are not the most clean like Rosolino, just as one example but there are others of course. I still enjoy listening to super clean playing by Urbie Green or other players, but Rosolino is just more thrilling to listen to.

I would like to ask how you would define sloppiness? Let's say someone plays an incredible jazz solo, great lines, great storytelling, at times virtuousic and then cracks one note towards the end. I would still consider this to be clean playing. Other instruments do miss notes as well. So there's some sort of an area to what's clean and what's sloppy, at least to me.

I can understand many of your points, but I think it's just not as drastic as you draw the picture. But most definitely agree with the fact sloppiness ≠ jazz trombone.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by SamBTbrn »

"good enough for jazz" is one of my most disliked sayings in music. The best jazz musicians are tight as hell when they need/want to be, the looseness is just a musical interpretation they choose. Some choose it more wildly then others, but then that's personal artistry.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by EriKon »

And I would like to add that I always strive to be a more clean in my playing. Especially in the jazz style, but as I'm playing pretty much every musical genre and classical music as well, in every area. And I'm definitely much cleaner when I play classical music. So definitely something I work on every day.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: an argument

Post by hyperbolica »

EriKon wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:23 am Curious to hear what spark set off that rant xD
Aw, geez, I have a feeling it was an offhand comment that I didn't intend to trigger anyone. I just thought that good slide/sound control was good musicianship no matter what style you play. Being able to control what sound you get sounds important to me. My teacher that kind of pushed me this way wasn't even known as a strictly legit player - he bent the rules a lot and wasn't content to play Tchaikovsky and Saint-Seans. Even jazzers don't want to sound like beginners, I assume.

My comment wasn't aimed at anyone. Maybe at myself, and things I'm always maybe overly conscious of as I play.

Did you ever hear a first year player playing scales and there's all this whhhaaawhhhhaaaawwwwwhhhhhhaaaaaaa in between notes? That's what I was referring to. Some times even experienced players don't time our arm and tongue together and it gets a little sloppy. A lot of times you get some slide between notes and its intentional, a legitimate effect. Singers do it and get away with it, and sometimes trombone imitates singers.

I didn't mean this as a legit vs jazzer thing.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by SamBTbrn »

tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:23 am And if you don't think it can be done, listen to this.

I would argue this is not "jazz" but a jazz influenced classical show piece.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by WGWTR180 »

I'm trying to control my laughter. I know sloppy classical players and superbly clean jazz players. In the end it's up to the actual player as to how they sound. Players of all types pay attention to details on wildly different levels. Not sure how provocative this really is. HNY!
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by BGuttman »

I think the key is to know your limitations. As a more-or-less classical player with lousy improvisational skills, I tend to concentrate on ballad-like solos and any up-tempo stuff I tend to play minor variations on the melody. I admire the folks who can do elaborate improvisation.

I also tend to play cleanly in Jazz Band whether playing lead, 2nd, 3rd, or bass. I don't buy sloppiness. I agree that just because it's called "Jazz" it's no excuse to be sloppy.

Now there are a couple of instances where "sloppy" is called for. You shouldn't play Spike Jones too straight. Nor should you play PDQ Bach too sloppy, in spite of the intent to sound "off".
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Savio »

tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am One of the big philosophical divides between legit trombone players and jazz trombone players has to do with the cleanliness of playing. I'll start with some general observations (stereotypes?) that have a good bit of truth to them.

Classical players work hard to make their playing sound perfect. Perfection in tone, intonation, dynamics, articulations, releases, posture, breathing, etc. Every note they play has to be perfectly clean and played with conscious intent. They study arcane minutiae from hundreds of years ago in a quest to remain loyal to what they believe is long dead composers' original intent. They look down their noses at jazz players for their sloppy playing and poor tone (but to be fair, legit players look down their noses at everyone ;) ).

Jazz players care little for technical perfection, and prize creativity, emotion, passion, and musical ideas and development. Their playing is immediate, improvisational, and impassioned, sacrificing technical perfection for instantaneous musical adventures. New ideas, uniqueness, and moving the music forward prevails over the notion of faithfully reproducing earlier works. Indeed, playing something the way it was played 50-100 years ago is to be avoided. Been there, done that. Newness, progress, and individualism are prized. They think classical players sound wooden, sterile, staid, stuck up, and lack facility.

For some reason, trombone culture generally dictates that we land in one of those two camps. This is an argument for blending the classical ethic into the jazz/pop/rock/commercial realm.

I think the acceptance of sloppy playing in jazz tromboning is nothing more than an abject surrender to the difficulty of the instrument. It's "too hard" to play intricate, technical, and improvised passages cleanly, so trombonists have simply given up and claimed their lack of ability to play cleanly as unimportant or, even worse, detrimental to their musical expression. Sloppiness is claimed as a feature, not a bug.

I maintain that 99% of those who excuse sloppiness in jazz/commercial playing would play cleanly if they could, but they can't. So in the same way KFC markets their greasy-ass chicken as "finger-licking good!" to turn a detriment into a perceived advantage, jazz trombonists market their sloppy-ass jazz playing as a feature of the idiom, not a lack in their ability.

Much of what makes trombone jazz essentially unlistenable to both other musicians and the general public, alike -- and the reason why you don't have trombones fronting jazz groups (though trombonists seem to think this is a mystery) -- is the rampant sloppiness. To me, it doesn't matter how awesome your ideas are if you can't play them well. Stumbling through them does not improve them, and listeners hear the whole, not just the part you want them to, and your lack of proficiency on your instrument destroys the listenability for them.

Let me dismiss the inevitable excuses: Yes, intentional and mindful imperfections can enhance jazz expression if used sparingly and for a discrete purpose or effect, but 99.9999% of the time it's neither intentional nor mindful, it's just sloppy. Yes, occasionally a mistake actually makes a solo better, but that is never predictable and it's like catching lightning in a bottle it's so rare. Yes, perfection can be boring and sterile, but only when it is mere technique, alone, without musicality, which again is sacrificing one aspect for another when both are needed.

If I could wave a magic wand, I'd send all jazz trombonists into the practice room and lock the door for five years, and make them learn to play like classical trombonists. But jazz players need to go further. They need to develop their technique and facility to the point where they can play all those great improvisational licks cleanly and musically, and not let slop and garbage detract from what would otherwise be great playing. In essence, jazz players should develop the classical ethic and skills required for good, clean playing of the instrument, and then push that forward into the kind of technique and facility required to play jazz ideas that are routinely played with great clarity by sax players, pianists, trumpeters, guitarists, and the rest of the jazz world.

Keep going with acceptance of all the slop and garbage in jazz tromboning and you'll render the instrument extinct in jazz. It's almost there, already. No one wants to listen to the crap in your sound, they want to hear good, clean music.

If you don't have great facility, simplify your jazz ideas to not exceed your technical ability. Develop your technique to the point where you can play intricate and lightning fast licks cleanly and with the precision of a valved or keyed instrument. Make the overall sound of what you're playing the top priority, and refuse to sacrifice either cleanliness or passion. Make glisses, slop, clipped notes and clams the rare and intentional exception to a vast ocean of clean playing.

And quit trying to convince people that your sloppy-ass technique and crap sound are a feature. You're only fooling yourselves.

Okay, that's my opinion. You may now commence firing. :)
This is very interesting! Don't have so much to say since I don't feel classical, jazz or commercial. Just struggling with my slide. But there was a famous jazz player here in the forum; Sabutin or Sam Burtis. He was very classical in his thoughts how to play trombone. In fact very strict on all basic trombone aspects. Marshall Gilkes is also a trombone player that probably do everything. Joe Alessi also played jazz before.

You have some good points Dana, and I think we all will follow this topic! This will be a good discussion. Because we all have something to learn from each other! Hope I can learn improvising but think it's to late.

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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tim »

Possibly the best advice we could give to young players, thanks Dana.

"If you don't have great facility, simplify your jazz ideas to not exceed your technical ability. Develop your technique to the point where you can play intricate and lightning fast licks cleanly and with the precision of a valved or keyed instrument. Make the overall sound of what you're playing the top priority, and refuse to sacrifice either cleanliness or passion. Make glisses, slop, clipped notes and clams the rare and intentional exception to a vast ocean of clean playing."
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by harrisonreed »

A: if the solo is transcribed properly, after it is recorded, then the recording shows a technical execution of 100%

B: I think it would be cool to hear sloppy classical playing. Oh wait. No.

😂
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by baileyman »

I've wondered why it is that classical players play the strict way they do. Has anyone looked into the feedback effect of old written music when there is no one alive who heard it new? What might've been a classical lilt or swing gets pounded down to a strict performance practice regimen? In a big band a thing that looks like an unadorned quarter note can sound many different ways, and should! But my impression in the classical world, a quarter goes exactly like "this", no exception. Though it does seem you could ask French or opera players and get some different classical interpretation.

Jazz tromboners often reach beyond their capability or the horn's envelope. For some this may sound emotive or passionate--for others, lost in the weeds. It is very helpful to simplify the imagination so that it generates things to play that can actually be played. And this approach will lead to a startlingly different practice routine of exploring the possible.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by nelson31 »

This is some pretty clean jazz playing!

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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Burgerbob »

Classical playing (which is a massive, massive net being thrown) is being called "clean" here in a strangely derogatory way. I don't think any jazz or commercial player would play any less clean in a big band or horn section.

You're darn tootin' I want the players on either side of me to play what's on the page with a good sound and style.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by ngrinder »

This is incredibly misinformed.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 7:16 pm Classical playing (which is a massive, massive net being thrown) is being called "clean" here in a strangely derogatory way. I don't think any jazz or commercial player would play any less clean in a big band or horn section.

You're darn tootin' I want the players on either side of me to play what's on the page with a good sound and style.
Interesting, the unintended interpretations. There was certainly nothing derogatory in the word clean. Just descriptive shorthand.

Also my observations are more about improvisation, not section playing.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by WilliamLang »

The Fumeaux recordings, exciting as they were at the time, are far from clean. Still a good and fun time though.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

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baileyman wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 6:07 pm I've wondered why it is that classical players play the strict way they do. Has anyone looked into the feedback effect of old written music when there is no one alive who heard it new? What might've been a classical lilt or swing gets pounded down to a strict performance practice regimen? In a big band a thing that looks like an unadorned quarter note can sound many different ways, and should! But my impression in the classical world, a quarter goes exactly like "this", no exception.
I think your impression is wrong. Maybe the classical players you are hearing are not very good? We spend our whole lives studying the music, understanding the styles, and knowing when a ff is not a ff, or the difference between a Mozart sforzando and a Stravinsky sforzando, or when notes should be shorter or longer than what is notated. I have done many gigs with jazz or commercial players who have NEVER studied or even heard classical music, yet somehow think they are qualified to do the job. Those are the ones who are likely either robotically playing exactly what's on the page, or even worse, changing it in a wildly inappropriate way.

And you don't necessarily need recordings to understand styles. Literature exists from all time periods that explain performance practice at the time. Some of it is still guesswork, but they are informed guesses. And period instruments exist, so we know what they sounded like and how they would probably fit into an ensemble.
Last edited by brassmedic on Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by brassmedic »

By the way, I read all the comments here, and I will add myself to the list of people who believe great jazz players are just as "clean" as great classical players.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by LeTromboniste »

This:
tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am Classical players work hard to make their playing sound perfect. Perfection in tone, intonation, dynamics, articulations, releases, posture, breathing, etc. Every note they play has to be perfectly clean
yeah, sure,

this however:
tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am They study arcane minutiae from hundreds of years ago in a quest to remain loyal to what they believe is long dead composers' original intent.
very much no. Or when they think they do, it's usually very superficially the case.

The modern classical trombone aesthetics are almost entirely based on the performance practice, equipment evolution and recording canon of the last 60-70 years at most, coalesced into a very strictly and narrowly codified way of playing, with too often an enormous focus on absolute evenness ("bricks!") pushed to the extreme where anything that is the slightest bit uneven (even if it were on purpose) is seen as sloppy and lacking consistency. But that's certainly not the result of studying the practice or intentions of hundreds of years ago.

Otherwise I generally agree with the sentiment. We should all expand our horizons and push the boundaries, and not be content with merely meeting the expectations of the job. We can all develop both better technique AND more facility, creativity and spontaneity, because there is no reason these should be antithetical.



One word of caution about classical technique being something that should be acquired by all. There are elements for which I would say, sure absolutely. But some other, sometimes central, concept of classical technique are to me incompatible and completely opposed with what you express. An example: a while back Sasha Romero posted on Facebook about the problems with the obsession for "cloned" notes that is omnipresent in the classical trombone world. Some of the responses expressed a feeling I've very often heard elsewhere, that one needs to first develop the control needed to perfectly and consistently clone notes in order to be able to do anything else. I take serious issue with that because although it might make some (albeit very incomplete) sense as a pedagogical tool, it way too often winds up being elevated to the level of aesthetic ideal, and leading to the very misguided impression that from this ability to play everything the same will naturally flow the ability to play things not the same. I often wonder if I'd be further along my path to acquire the skills and subtlety I'm trying to play with had I not spent so many years trying to develop that absolute evenness, and instead learned and practiced from the start to play with as much (intentional and controlled) variety and flexibility as possible. I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Wed Jan 01, 2025 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

Very interesting and informative post, Max. I learned. Thank you. :)
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by baileyman »

brassmedic wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:39 pm
baileyman wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 6:07 pm I've wondered why it is that classical players play the strict way they do. Has anyone looked into the feedback effect of old written music when there is no one alive who heard it new? What might've been a classical lilt or swing gets pounded down to a strict performance practice regimen? In a big band a thing that looks like an unadorned quarter note can sound many different ways, and should! But my impression in the classical world, a quarter goes exactly like "this", no exception.
I think your impression is wrong. Maybe the classical players you are hearing are not very good? We spend our whole lives studying the music, understanding the styles, and knowing when a ff is not a ff, or the difference between a Mozart sforzando and a Stravinsky sforzando, or when notes should be shorter or longer than what is notated. I have done many gigs with jazz or commercial players who have NEVER studied or even heard classical music, yet somehow think they are qualified to do the job. Those are the ones who are likely either robotically playing exactly what's on the page, or even worse, changing it in a wildly inappropriate way.

And you don't necessarily need recordings to understand styles. Literature exists from all time periods that explain performance practice at the time. Some of it is still guesswork, but they are informed guesses. And period instruments exist, so we know what they sounded like and how they would probably fit into an ensemble.
Interesting and worthwhile, so I will listen more closely to hear the difference. Interesting also what LeTromboniste then says, which I think is what I hear.
LeTromboniste wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 4:14 pm ...
The modern classical trombone aesthetics are almost entirely based on the performance practice, equipment evolution and recording canon of the last 60-70 years at most, coalesced into a very strictly and narrowly codified way of playing, with too often an enormous focus on absolute evenness ("bricks!") pushed to the extreme where anything that is the slightest bit uneven (even if it were on purpose) is seen as sloppy and lacking consistency.
...
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by LeTromboniste »

baileyman wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 5:34 pm
brassmedic wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:39 pm
I think your impression is wrong. Maybe the classical players you are hearing are not very good? We spend our whole lives studying the music, understanding the styles, and knowing when a ff is not a ff, or the difference between a Mozart sforzando and a Stravinsky sforzando, or when notes should be shorter or longer than what is notated. I have done many gigs with jazz or commercial players who have NEVER studied or even heard classical music, yet somehow think they are qualified to do the job. Those are the ones who are likely either robotically playing exactly what's on the page, or even worse, changing it in a wildly inappropriate way.

And you don't necessarily need recordings to understand styles. Literature exists from all time periods that explain performance practice at the time. Some of it is still guesswork, but they are informed guesses. And period instruments exist, so we know what they sounded like and how they would probably fit into an ensemble.
Interesting and worthwhile, so I will listen more closely to hear the difference. Interesting also what LeTromboniste then says, which I think is what I hear.
LeTromboniste wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 4:14 pm ...
The modern classical trombone aesthetics are almost entirely based on the performance practice, equipment evolution and recording canon of the last 60-70 years at most, coalesced into a very strictly and narrowly codified way of playing, with too often an enormous focus on absolute evenness ("bricks!") pushed to the extreme where anything that is the slightest bit uneven (even if it were on purpose) is seen as sloppy and lacking consistency.
...
The two are not mutually exclusive. Classical players play Mozart different than they'll play Mahler. A mf 8th note is not the same length, weight or dynamic in every context. But there is definitely a tendency within any given context to aim for a lot of evenness, and generally very square-shaped notes.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by brassmedic »

LeTromboniste wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 7:32 pm The two are not mutually exclusive. Classical players play Mozart different than they'll play Mahler. A mf 8th note is not the same length, weight or dynamic in every context. But there is definitely a tendency within any given context to aim for a lot of evenness, and generally very square-shaped notes.
Perhaps because it's a sign of an inexperienced player to start a note with a sloppy attack and have the tone color "bloom" halfway through the note, because the embouchure was not set correctly at the start? I even worked with a professional player who had this tone color and volume shift on literally every note. Maybe they thought they were being "expressive", but it was not pleasant to listen to. I bet a lot of teachers try to dissuade their students from doing this, perhaps going too far with it and ending up with these "bricks", as you call them.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Doug Elliott »

In any idiom, varied articulation and tone, portamentos, glisses, etc are fine with me if they are done intentionally and for expression and a musical purpose - not out of habit or general sloppiness.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by LeTromboniste »

Doug Elliott wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:28 am In any idiom, varied articulation and tone, portamentos, glisses, etc are fine with me if they are done intentionally and for expression and a musical purpose - not out of habit or general sloppiness.
Exactly this.
brassmedic wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 11:45 pm Perhaps because it's a sign of an inexperienced player to start a note with a sloppy attack and have the tone color "bloom" halfway through the note, because the embouchure was not set correctly at the start? I even worked with a professional player who had this tone color and volume shift on literally every note. Maybe they thought they were being "expressive", but it was not pleasant to listen to. I bet a lot of teachers try to dissuade their students from doing this, perhaps going too far with it and ending up with these "bricks", as you call them.
I would think that having access to, and control of, a wider palette of articulations, note shapes, sound colours, dynamics, etc., and that being able to give relief and shading to phrases, are absolutely essential tools to making music, and not merely signs of inexperience. Otherwise we're painters focused on drawing the most evenly-shaped, consistent and straight-lined stick figures with a black sharpie thinking that's going to result in us being able to paint the next Joconde...
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by SamBTbrn »

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 3:41 am
Doug Elliott wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:28 am In any idiom, varied articulation and tone, portamentos, glisses, etc are fine with me if they are done intentionally and for expression and a musical purpose - not out of habit or general sloppiness.
Exactly this.
brassmedic wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 11:45 pm Perhaps because it's a sign of an inexperienced player to start a note with a sloppy attack and have the tone color "bloom" halfway through the note, because the embouchure was not set correctly at the start? I even worked with a professional player who had this tone color and volume shift on literally every note. Maybe they thought they were being "expressive", but it was not pleasant to listen to. I bet a lot of teachers try to dissuade their students from doing this, perhaps going too far with it and ending up with these "bricks", as you call them.
I would think that having access to, and control of, a wider palette of articulations, note shapes, sound colours, dynamics, etc., and that being able to give relief and shading to phrases, are absolutely essential tools to making music, and not merely signs of inexperience. Otherwise we're painters focused on drawing the most evenly-shaped, consistent and straight-lined stick figures with a black sharpie thinking that's going to result in us being able to paint the next Joconde...
What I think Max is getting at is the trend over the last 20 - 30 years of "classical" trombone playing that teaches everything should be sustained with full sound the whole lengths of the note right untill the next note which should be a continuation of the sustain of the previous note, with no "shape" in the note. Aka playing everything like a Bruckner Symphony. Its easy to hear at the conservatoriums for example, students playing the Lebedev and the Bozza with exactly the same style and approach. Which is not really appropriate for either
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Doug Elliott »

But it's necessary to be able to do that, and it's definitely a worthwhile exercise for someone who can't.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by imsevimse »

I recognize what Dana says from what was going on in the 1970-ies and early1980-ies when I studied at the Royal Accademy of music in Stockholm and when jazz was still looked down on by the education system here. It wasn't fully recognized but had just started to change. It was about the time I got there when the school started the first program where you could study jazz. The problem wasn't so much the actual musicians and teachers who were teaching but the culture of the school and more from a theoretical point.There were assumptions based on bias and that had created groups against jazz (mostly), and bad knowledge had led to less respect for jazz as an artform. This was someghing I felt later on when I started to teach and met with colleagues who had studied before me. For short: the ones who were teaching who could not swing!!!

Today I do not think this exists there at all. Music education has changed. And I do not believe this has been a problem between actual skilled players and musicians, they have always as I remember appreciated both jazz and classical skills.

Now why sloppy classical playing or stiff jazz performances?

I think the ones who only play jazz should be forced to get more into classical trombone training and vice versa at college level. They should study both because I think anyone, openminded or not would be helpt by that. I think it will benefit their playing.

Jazzers should play the classical repertoire to learn that kind of perspective, and classical musicians should start to improvise more and learn how to swing. The classically interested could start to improvise in the baroque ideom if that makes more sense and later on they might try to improvise in other ideoms. Jazzers should learn how to play disciplined and to be conscious of what they do. To add a glissando anywere isn't jazzy it is just bad taste.

If we talk about professionals there are some classical pros who publicly perform jazz solos. Unfortunately it becomes obvious just after a few bars that they "loose" something in their performance. They might not be aware of it (apparently) but they do not swing. However they do execute the music perfectly. I do not know what to say. Maybe they should get criticized more for this? I'm sure there are other more classical solists who can do both but they are then less known as classical soloists.

I've only heard one jazzer most know as a jazzer who has done the opposite and that's Nils Landgren and that was a remarkable performance together with a choir, but he is classically trained and his jazz skills was infact used to add to the performance of what was a "classical piece" (what I think).

Maybe we should just stop talking about jazz versus classical or sloppy versus clean and just label everything as music performed with good or bad taste.

/Tom
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Fidbone »

In my experience freelance professionals and or Studio musicians are adept at both!
I guess what you are talking about here are either amateurs/semi-pros or maybe even professionals that get a full time position in a certain idiom and therefore neglect other styles of playing 🫣
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Wilktone »

imsevimse wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:00 am I recognize what Dana says from what was going on in the 1970-ies and early1980-ies when I studied at the Royal Accademy of music in Stockholm and when jazz was still looked down on by the education system here.
In the U.S. jazz education started to become more established and respected in the 1960s, I believe. Stan Kenton started his clinics in 1959, which went a long way towards making jazz education more respected and popular.
tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am One of the big philosophical divides between legit trombone players and jazz trombone players has to do with the cleanliness of playing. I'll start with some general observations (stereotypes?) that have a good bit of truth to them.
Have we established that there is really any truth to these observations? Maybe back in the day, when colleges and universities weren't teaching jazz would some classical players accuse jazz musicians of playing with sloppy technique, but I don't think that criticism was valid back then either. It might have had more to do with racism or institutional stagnation than any real acceptance of sloppiness among jazz trombonists.

Are there any particular examples of sloppy jazz trombone recordings that anyone can think of that is well respected and considered important or influential?

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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

Wilktone wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:11 am
tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am One of the big philosophical divides between legit trombone players and jazz trombone players has to do with the cleanliness of playing. I'll start with some general observations (stereotypes?) that have a good bit of truth to them.
Have we established that there is really any truth to these observations? Maybe back in the day, when colleges and universities weren't teaching jazz would some classical players accuse jazz musicians of playing with sloppy technique, but I don't think that criticism was valid back then either. It might have had more to do with racism or institutional stagnation than any real acceptance of sloppiness among jazz trombonists.

Are there any particular examples of sloppy jazz trombone recordings that anyone can think of that is well respected and considered important or influential?

Dave
I thought about providing an example or two of the kind of playing I was talking about, and quickly ditched that idea. I would never hold up anyone's playing but my own as an example of something I'm critical of. But not too long ago I did post one I could have used as an example, though I didn't say anything about it at the time.

To be clear, I don't think it is universally true. I don't think the best players do it. But I do think a lot of players do, and it runs the gamut: amateurs, students, semi-pro, and pro. I've been perplexed that others here say they've never heard such a thing, but rather than being stupid and offensive by starting to give examples I decided just to let it go.

Besides, if all the jazz players you hear are playing clear, clean, nicely shaped notes where you can recognize their pitch, you're listening to the right music. But it's out there, and I strongly believe for that and many other reasons that we should all be learning classical technique and ethos to improve our overall jazz playing.

I'll also confess that this has a bit of the "reformed smoker" in it for me, in that at one point I had to work very hard to undo bad habits and learn to play cleaner -- which I think I do pretty well these days, but not I'm not perfect at it and one of the videos of my own playing that I posted contains some parts that make me cringe when I hear it -- and like former cigarette smokers can be uber sensitive about those who still smoke, this stuff really jumps out at me when I hear it.

One more thing and then I'll shut up: if this thread bothers you, wait until I make a post about what classical players should learn from jazzers. LOL! :D
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Burgerbob »

Fidbone wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:25 am In my experience freelance professionals and or Studio musicians are adept at both!
I guess what you are talking about here are either amateurs/semi-pros or maybe even professionals that get a full time position in a certain idiom and therefore neglect other styles of playing 🫣
:clever:
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argume

Post by Cmillar »

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 3:41 am
Doug Elliott wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:28 am In any idiom, varied articulation and tone, portamentos, glisses, etc are fine with me if they are done intentionally and for expression and a musical purpose - not out of habit or general sloppiness.
Exactly this.
brassmedic wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 11:45 pm Perhaps because it's a sign of an inexperienced player to start a note with a sloppy attack and have the tone color "bloom" halfway through the note, because the embouchure was not set correctly at the start? I even worked with a professional player who had this tone color and volume shift on literally every note. Maybe they thought they were being "expressive", but it was not pleasant to listen to. I bet a lot of teachers try to dissuade their students from doing this, perhaps going too far with it and ending up with these "bricks", as you call them.
I would think that having access to, and control of, a wider palette of articulations, note shapes, sound colours, dynamics, etc., and that being able to give relief and shading to phrases, are absolutely essential tools to making music, and not merely signs of inexperience. Otherwise we're painters focused on drawing the most evenly-shaped, consistent and straight-lined stick figures with a black sharpie thinking that's going to result in us being able to paint the next Joconde...

Yes to all the above words!

Which is why it is best for wanna-be professional musicians on any instrument to find teachers and mentors who have actual professional experience in as many musical genres as possible.

Especially these days, seeing as there are a lot of music ‘teachers’ who don’t actually have any professional experience at all…only a degree of some kind and some ‘pedagogical training’.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by brassmedic »

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 3:41 am

I would think that having access to, and control of, a wider palette of articulations, note shapes, sound colours, dynamics, etc., and that being able to give relief and shading to phrases, are absolutely essential tools to making music, and not merely signs of inexperience. Otherwise we're painters focused on drawing the most evenly-shaped, consistent and straight-lined stick figures with a black sharpie thinking that's going to result in us being able to paint the next Joconde...
Sure, if you have control of it. I'm talking about players who have no control of the timbre or articulation. That is absolutely a sign of inexperience. Or incompetence.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by TomInME »

Interesting that almost nobody has mentioned the downside of all that "perfection" poured into classical performances: the lack of energy and expression that often accompanies it.

I want the players next to me to do what's on the page and do it well, but also more. If there's no fire in what comes out, I don't blame the audience for walking away - as many orchestral concertgoers have.

I for one am afraid of what will happen to jazz if the pursuit of technical perfection supersedes the pursuit of expression.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

TomInME wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:28 am Interesting that almost nobody has mentioned the downside of all that "perfection" poured into classical performances: the lack of energy and expression that often accompanies it.

I want the players next to me to do what's on the page and do it well, but also more. If there's no fire in what comes out, I don't blame the audience for walking away - as many orchestral concertgoers have.

I for one am afraid of what will happen to jazz if the pursuit of technical perfection supersedes the pursuit of expression.
A false dichotomy. It isn’t a choice between one or the other. It’s both. Both are necessary. The whole reason I mentioned this is because I’m so weary of hearing people try to play beyond their ability and excusing it by using the fake excuse that playing better will make their jazz worse. Nonsense.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by LeTromboniste »

brassmedic wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:11 am
LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 3:41 am

I would think that having access to, and control of, a wider palette of articulations, note shapes, sound colours, dynamics, etc., and that being able to give relief and shading to phrases, are absolutely essential tools to making music, and not merely signs of inexperience. Otherwise we're painters focused on drawing the most evenly-shaped, consistent and straight-lined stick figures with a black sharpie thinking that's going to result in us being able to paint the next Joconde...
Sure, if you have control of it. I'm talking about players who have no control of the timbre or articulation. That is absolutely a sign of inexperience. Or incompetence.
Yeah but my point is that modern classical brass pedagogy, instead of teaching to develop this control on variety and unevenness, tends to beat the variety out of the player.

The ability to play everything consistently even with identical square-shaped notes does not lead to the ability to play with intentional variety and therefore can't be equated with "control".
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by Burgerbob »

To be fair... I think the "brick" approach is largely based out of one school and one teacher. I honestly haven't run into a lot of it here on the west coast, and we have cats from all over.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by VJOFan »

Ray Anderson. Jimmy Knepper.

Are they sloppy or clean? I’m not sure, but they create captivating music that touches me each time listen. Players who aren’t musically convincing probably won’t get much of an audience clean or sloppy.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by LeTromboniste »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:29 am To be fair... I think the "brick" approach is largely based out of one school and one teacher. I honestly haven't run into a lot of it here on the west coast, and we have cats from all over.
I've seen some extent of it pretty much everywhere I've lived and worked, even when people think they don't subscribe to it. It's very pervasive. By far the biggest portion of my teaching anytime I teach historical performance practice to modern players, whether at my school, in masterclasses or at workshops, is getting them to realise how narrow a portion of the spectrum they use, and how much untapped musical potential resides in the rest of the spectrum. And many of them are good musicians with good instincts. It just doesn't occur to them to go for these ideas because it's simply not a part of the paradigm and they're not exposed to it.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

VJOFan wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:35 am Ray Anderson. Jimmy Knepper.

Are they sloppy or clean? I’m not sure, but they create captivating music that touches me each time listen. Players who aren’t musically convincing probably won’t get much of an audience clean or sloppy.
I think Ray Anderson just likes to make funny noises on the trombone, which is not my cup of tea. I definitely don't find it "captivating," except in the driving past the scene of an accident sense. But it's also not the same as playing licks in earnest and not being able to play them cleanly.

I don't have many memories of Jimmy Knepper, but I remember him as a pretty articulate, clean player. So I dunno. I'd have to listen.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by brassmedic »

TomInME wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:28 am Interesting that almost nobody has mentioned the downside of all that "perfection" poured into classical performances: the lack of energy and expression that often accompanies it.

I want the players next to me to do what's on the page and do it well, but also more. If there's no fire in what comes out, I don't blame the audience for walking away - as many orchestral concertgoers have.

I for one am afraid of what will happen to jazz if the pursuit of technical perfection supersedes the pursuit of expression.
Wow. I absolutely don't hear that in major symphony orchestras today. To my ear, the performances are very exciting and captivating. I don't see how being less proficient on your instrument would make you more musical. :idk:

If symphony orchestras are losing audience members, it's because the younger generation would rather stare at Tiktok all day, and the older generation are simply dying off.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by EriKon »

Wilktone wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:11 am
tbdana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 10:57 am One of the big philosophical divides between legit trombone players and jazz trombone players has to do with the cleanliness of playing. I'll start with some general observations (stereotypes?) that have a good bit of truth to them.
Have we established that there is really any truth to these observations? Maybe back in the day, when colleges and universities weren't teaching jazz would some classical players accuse jazz musicians of playing with sloppy technique, but I don't think that criticism was valid back then either. It might have had more to do with racism or institutional stagnation than any real acceptance of sloppiness among jazz trombonists.

Are there any particular examples of sloppy jazz trombone recordings that anyone can think of that is well respected and considered important or influential?

Dave
This is still not really answered and I'm also missing a clear definition of sloppy playing. What are we talking about? Do we talk about cracking three notes in a 5 minute jazz solo? Do we talk about poor slide-tongue coordination and poor intonation? Do we talk about some notes not being played dead-center? Do we talk about one chord not being in tune on a classic choral? What is the definition of sloppy playing that is the foundation for this discussion? As long as there is no established base of discussion everyone has different pictures of sloppy and clean playing in mind and there's no way to discuss this properly with the discussion leading somewhere.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

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Or is this a comment on the jazz players not playing what is written on the page? I often have players who are primarily classical players struggle playing along with experienced jazz players. The classical guys often don't know the conventions of jazz playing and expect the written music to be rigidly adhered to, so they come in late or early or articulate inappropriately for the jazz style.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by tbdana »

EriKon wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 3:52 pm This is still not really answered and I'm also missing a clear definition of sloppy playing. What are we talking about?
Erik, I'm just not sure it's susceptible to precise definition, and it can be a million different things. Do we know bad playing when we hear it?
Do we talk about cracking three notes in a 5 minute jazz solo?
No. But in fairness there is some point -- sorry, can't define it with a precise number for you -- where the nature and number of clams in a solo takes away from the musicality to the point that I would included it here as a yes.

(I use the word "clams" as meaning mistakes, missed notes, clipped notes, notes that fall off the pitch in the middle, split tone notes, and other impurities in a note that make a musical difference.)
Do we talk about poor slide-tongue coordination and poor intonation?
Yes.
Do we talk about some notes not being played dead-center?
Depends. Playing some notes ("blue" notes) on the low side is just right. Playing sharper as you play higher is bad. Too many variables for precise definition.
Do we talk about one chord not being in tune on a classic choral?
No. And this thread is about jazz players playing improvised solos.
What is the definition of sloppy playing that is the foundation for this discussion? As long as there is no established base of discussion everyone has different pictures of sloppy and clean playing in mind and there's no way to discuss this properly with the discussion leading somewhere.
Well, then, maybe it won't lead anywhere. I'm just not pedantic in the way I think about or discuss this. Bad playing is like porn. You know it when you hear it.
Richard3rd wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 4:01 pm Or is this a comment on the jazz players not playing what is written on the page? I often have players who are primarily classical players struggle playing along with experienced jazz players. The classical guys often don't know the conventions of jazz playing and expect the written music to be rigidly adhered to, so they come in late or early or articulate inappropriately for the jazz style.
Well, that's all true, but that isn't what I meant. When I used the term "playing jazz" or "jazz playing," I didn't mean in the sense of the idiom or genre. I meant in the sense of improvised solos. "Jazz" is also a slang term meanings improvising, as in, "Who's gonna play the jazz on this tune tonight?"

Since I said I would only use my own work as examples of poor playing, here are two excerpts from a solo I played. It's pretty fast, which is where I often come across sloppy playing, and of which I am guilty here. One very common source of slop in jazz playing is trying to play faster than you are able to play cleanly. In these two clips I'd say the first one is unacceptably sloppy. The second one is imperfect, too, but IMHO is acceptably clean. But if I played generally like the first clip, I'd say I was playing beyond my ability and should either get better before trying that again, or just simplify what I choose to play.

This is very sloppy and is the kind of slop I'm talking about. It's a fail IMHO: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/82r061tm ... cd24d&dl=0

This is better. Not perfect but at least you can hear the notes so I'll give it a pass: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/075xr27h ... xds28&dl=0

I hope that's helpful, but I suspect this is one of those topics where people would argue about the minutiae of the color of the sky.
Last edited by tbdana on Thu Jan 02, 2025 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clean/sloppy playing in modern popular music: a provocative argument

Post by brassmedic »

Richard3rd wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 4:01 pm Or is this a comment on the jazz players not playing what is written on the page? I often have players who are primarily classical players struggle playing along with experienced jazz players. The classical guys often don't know the conventions of jazz playing and expect the written music to be rigidly adhered to, so they come in late or early or articulate inappropriately for the jazz style.
I totally agree with this, but it's an interesting comment because several people here have implied that classical players are slaves to convention and only play within a a rigid set of established rules. Yet I often hear comments from jazz players about people not knowing how to swing properly, what type of articulation to use, what note lengths are appropriate, etc. Are they any less rigid than classical players?
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