Exercise to increase lung volume and tips for doublers

[Nomsis]

I'm still new to bass trombone since I bought my first bass trombone about a month ago and could not find much time to practise so far. However I played a little bit and so far everything works out well, I'm happy with the sound and range I can produce. However I found it to be pretty exhausting and especially I run out of air very fast. I assume this is normal. The instrument obviously needs the air to be moved different and generally consumes more of it.

So my question is, are there any exercises I can do without the instrument to increase my lung volume? I'm thinking of things I can do when waiting for the train or when taking a short break at work or in similar situations.

I think the best way to increase the lung volume would be to just practise the bass trombone but sadly my practise time is limited and simultaneously I focus on improving my trumpet skills. So most of my practise time currently is for the trumpet which counteracts my efforts of increasing my lung volume. Still thinking how to balance this out.

For reference, I'm an ambitious amateur player and my main instrument is tenor trombone. I aim at 5 hours practise time at home a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. I would like to practise more but I don't have the time for this. I picked up the trumpet when a year ago a colleague wanted to get rid of a ugly looking trumpet (by the way does anyone knows "american symphonic"?) to help out in one ensemble I play where I spotted a quality deficit in the second trumpet part. The quality of the ensemble is quite low so just after one year I was able to improve the situation but I'm still not satisfied with my trumpet skills. And it is kind of a frustrating (but fun) experience to struggle up my trumpet skills. Luckily I never experienced problems switching between instruments so far. Back to bass trombone, over the last years I put some practise time into my low range on tenor so I could cover the occasional bass trombone part on my music stand. I think this helps now on bass trombone. But I feel like the tenor needs much less air for this range.

So the main question is about exercises for lung volume but any general tip on my situation would be nice.

[Kbiggs]

The quickest and easiest exercises involve paced breathing. If you’re walking, or even standing still, pick a steady tempo and then breathe in and out with that pace. Try to breathe in completely with chest completely expanded, and blow out completely with abdominals pressing towards the rib cage.

1. Breathe in 4 paces, breathe out 4 paces
2. Breathe in 5, breathe out 5
3. In 6, out 6, etc.

You can also do just one of those multiple times:
In 4, out 4 done times, or 20 times.

Also, try breathing in quickly and blowing out slowly; in slow and out quick; and in quick and out quick.
In 1, out 4 | In 1, out 10 | etc.
In 4, out 1 | In 8, out 2 | etc.
In 1, out 1, etc.

Vary the tempo. Deliberately speed up after each set, or deliberately slow down after each set.

Vary the amount you breathe in. Try to breathe in only 1/2, or 3/4. Then 1/3, 2/3, 3/8, 5/8, etc.

When you inhale, suck air in. When exhaling, blow air out without resistance except from the lips.

Exercises like these help increase your useable capacity, but just as importantly increase your awareness of your useable capacity.

There are several good books out there: Patrick Sheridan and Sam PIlafian The Breathing Gym, and David Vining’s Breathing for Musicians (or something like that).

[Nomsis]

Thanks for this exercise, it's nice that it can be done while walking. I will definitely try this out, it's a long time since I last did breathing exercises.

Try to breathe in completely with chest completely expanded, and blow out completely with abdominals pressing towards the rib cage.

just having a little problem understanding this passage (it's a language barrier since I'm a non-native English speaker and I'm not used to this vocab)

In Germany I learned about "Bauchatmung" (breathing "into stomach") and "Brustatmung" (filling the rest of the upper body). I learned to first fill the stomach (Bauchatmung) and then top it up with "Brustatmung". Is this what you are telling me I should do?

[harrisonreed]

I was under the impression that, similarly to exercising to increase your height, you cannot really increase your lung capacity through exercise. You can just learn to utilize what you have more efficiently.

[ghmerrill]

I was under the impression that, similarly to exercising to increase your height, you cannot really increase your lung capacity through exercise. You can just learn to utilize what you have more efficiently.

Yes, there is a lot of faulty analogizing still in play when talking about breathing for playing wind instruments. But people seem to enjoy it so much.

Also, don't forget to FILL THE INSTRUMENT WITH AIR!

[Burgerbob]

Playing more will make you more efficient which will mean you use less air.

[Nomsis]

I was under the impression that, similarly to exercising to increase your height, you cannot really increase your lung capacity through exercise. You can just learn to utilize what you have more efficiently.

Hm I think this is not true, I think lung capacity can be trained indeed. This is what I learned in school. For examples athletes like rowers and swimmers have a huge lung capacity as well. Playing wind instruments also increases lung capacity.

It's a few years but I remember in school we measured the lung capacity, I played trombone then already, and I had the second biggest lung capacity in the class. Only one classmate who did a lot of sports had a bigger one. Neither of us was a very big person compared to the others.

[GGJazz]

Hi folks .

I think Harrison is correct .
Lungs are not muscles , so once one had completed his physical development , one cannot increase his lung capacity.

You can instead learn how to make 100% use of your personal lung capacity , and that ( plus learning how to use the air in a correct and efficient way) is the key , in my opinion.

Regards
Giancarlo

[harrisonreed]

I was under the impression that, similarly to exercising to increase your height, you cannot really increase your lung capacity through exercise. You can just learn to utilize what you have more efficiently.

Hm I think this is not true, I think lung capacity can be trained indeed. This is what I learned in school. For examples athletes like rowers and swimmers have a huge lung capacity as well. Playing wind instruments also increases lung capacity.

It's a few years but I remember in school we measured the lung capacity, I played trombone then already, and I had the second biggest lung capacity in the class. Only one classmate who did a lot of sports had a bigger one. Neither of us was a very big person compared to the others.

Athletes usually have a very high VO2 max, which is how efficiently they can utilize oxygen, but that is not the same thing as having a large lung capacity. You can definitely train VO2 max.

I think most people also don't know how to fill their lungs. A lot of what brass players are doing is learning to fill their lungs to 90% capacity (where 100% results in death...) vs the 60% that I'm sure most people think is "full".

Still, let's say pro endurance athletes do have large lungs. Pro basketball players are also usually 7 feet tall. I don't think the basketball players trained for that.

Anyways, as for training how to get to 90% ... I'm not sure. I think the best way to do it is passively, like Aidan says -- just play a lot. That breathing gym stuff is silly.

[Nomsis]

The lung is like a sponge and we can increase the volume we can fill with this sponge and we can train the muscles used to stretch this sponge and displace other organs so we can fill more volume with the sponge. That is how I understand it at least.
Of course using the air efficient and learning how to squeeze and stretch your sponge entirely is probably the most important part though.

[Nomsis]

Anyways, as for training how to get to 90% ... I'm not sure. I think the best way to do it is passively, like Aidan says -- just play a lot. That breathing gym stuff is silly.

yeah this is how I would usually approach it as well (as stated in the OP) but I'm looking for alternatives due to my limited practise time.

[Doubler]

Patience and persistence are qualities required in order to succeed at anything, and paths that at first look like short cuts ultimately turn out to be dead ends. Success is usually measured in microscopic increments, and these increments are neither regular nor linear. I believe that most, if not all, of us face the challenge of frustration at not improving fast enough, and it is difficult to overcome. If you practice and play properly, you will improve. Rather than measuring progress in terms of days, use monthly assessments. You might record your playing at these (or longer) time intervals and compare them to get a clearer idea of what you have accomplished and to determine what your future goals should be.

[AndrewMeronek]

1. Breathe in 4 paces, breathe out 4 paces
2. Breathe in 5, breathe out 5
3. In 6, out 6, etc.

You can also do just one of those multiple times:
In 4, out 4 done times, or 20 times.

Also, try breathing in quickly and blowing out slowly; in slow and out quick; and in quick and out quick.
In 1, out 4 | In 1, out 10 | etc.
In 4, out 1 | In 8, out 2 | etc.
In 1, out 1, etc.

Vary the tempo. Deliberately speed up after each set, or deliberately slow down after each set.

Vary the amount you breathe in. Try to breathe in only 1/2, or 3/4. Then 1/3, 2/3, 3/8, 5/8, etc.

I recommend to do these with an added step: a "sustain" phase. Like:

In 4, sustain 4, out 4, sustain 4

where "sustain" means to keep trying to do the last phase even though you may be full of air or empty of air - WHILE KEEPING THE AIRWAY OPEN!!! This is where you can really feel the correct muscles engaging, and can tell you a lot about your (poor or great) posture.

[GabrielRice]

The Breathing Gym stuff is not silly. If you do it, it helps. If you are someone who does regular aerobic exercise, or something like yoga where rhythmic breathing is part of it, separate breathing exercises are much less necessary. But you can still get benefit from isolating the breathing and working on that skill separately.

The exercises KBiggs listed above are great. I would add that it can sometimes be very helpful to add resistance to the inhale and then release the resistance so that you get the sensation of a very fast inhale, which is incredibly useful when playing bass trombone. Specifically, seal your lips with the back of your hand and try to inhale (unsuccessfully, obviously) for about 3 counts and then take your hand away, let the air rush in for the last count, and then release the air out immediately.

[GGJazz]

Hi again.

To me , lung capacity (volume) means how much nature has allowed you to have as effective capacity of your lungs to contain air and fill themselves completely .

So , if one start to play trbn at ( let say) 13 , of course his lungs capacity will be helped to be devoloped and trained . But at the end of the general physical development , around 20/22 , one can not expand this capacity any further . As for the height .

Breathing exercises can be very good to be focused into a deep full way to breath , learning how to use your real capacity , and to train this ability. But if you have , let say , 5 LT of lungs capacity , you will not get 5, 8 LT with breathing exercises .

About " breathing into the stomach" , as OP wrote above , I guess that we do not fill our stomach with air ; we fill the bottom part of the lungs first , then the top . Doing that , we expand our abdomen and the ribcase .

Regards
Giancarlo

[imsevimse]

I've read that lunge volume depends on the length of your back and from that you can only train your body to make best use of that volume, this means use the air with efficiency and breath efficiant and take good care of the lungs youve got. A guess don't smoke or quit smoke is a good advice.
Then I've seen diagrams on how lung capacity fades away naturally with age, but I guess here training makes a lot of difference.

/Tom

[Trombo]

The best way to develop breathing is to do cyclic or aerobic sports such as jogging, swimming, cycling, etc. Christian Lindberg does yoga and runs marathons, and Charlie Vernon swims.

[MStarke]

I do not know if you can actually (substantially) increase your maximum lung capacity. But you can for sure get used to using your max consistently, using it in a more relaxed manner and using it efficiently.

Some of these aspects have been mentioned before. I have been some breathing exercises from time to time over the last two decades and did a little more of it in the last weeks following a shoulder injury.

I think it's essential to practice your breathing in a way that you are not building massive tension in parallel.
You find some good ideas in Bart van Lier's book "Coordination Training" integrated in an overall nice practice method.

[GabrielRice]

Yes, Charlie Vernon swims. He also does specific breathing exercises.

I don't really concern myself with lung capacity. I don't know what mine is and I don't want to know. What I DO concern myself with is:

1. taking long, full breaths whenever I can and taking quick, efficient breaths whenever I need to (sometimes that means through my nose). Both types of breaths are as relaxed as I can get them.

2. inhaling simply, that is without dropping my jaw way down (unnecessary) or pulling the mouthpiece away. This allows a very quick breath and a very quick turnaround back to exhaling.

"Breathing exercises" as I do and teach them are NOT intended to increase capacity. They are intended to develop awareness and comfort with using all of the capacity we have, and - EVEN MORE IMPORTANT - practice the turnaround, so that we transition from inhale to exhale and exhale to inhale with no time or disruption in between.

---------------------------------

Regarding capacity, a former student of mine is quite tall but very thin. He assumed that his thin body would not allow much capacity...until he had the opportunity to test his vital capacity, which turned out to be a lot - 8 or 9 liters I think. Armed with that knowledge, he started giving himself more time to take his initial breaths and could immediately play much longer phrases. As it happens, he also runs marathons at very close to world-class times. But the marathon running itself would not have helped his trombone playing without the decision to give himself more time to inhale whenever possible.

[Kbiggs]

I was under the impression that, similarly to exercising to increase your height, you cannot really increase your lung capacity through exercise. You can just learn to utilize what you have more efficiently.

Yes.

Lungs are not muscles , so once one had completed his physical development , one cannot increase his lung capacity.

You can instead learn how to make 100% use of your personal lung capacity , and that ( plus learning how to use the air in a correct and efficient way) is the key , in my opinion.

[Giancarlo]

Yes, we want to increase our useable capacity. The exercises I outlined above, along with The Breathing Gym, David Vining’s Breathing Book, and a lot of other things marketed towards brass players, are to increase your use more of the available capacity and—and I think more importantly—allow you to become more aware of your capacity.

When we’re born, our lungs are tiny. They grow with us until the early to mid-20’s. Barring any disease or pollutants, they stay roughly the same size and shape until the mid 40’s to early 50’s. After that, they slowly become less elastic and flexible unless we do something to help them stay flexible, like exercise of any kind.

***

In a way, we’re not really concerned with lung capacity or lung function at all. If you accept that the ability to move air (wind) is necessary to playing a brass instrument, then what we’re really concerned with is (a) training and maintaining our bodies to move air in and out quickly, efficiently, and with as little effort as possible, (b) developing and maintaining awareness of the amount of air we need to play a passage and (c) the coordination of abdominal, intercostal, and embouchure muscles to release the air in the appropriate amount and speed to play a passage.

I’m gonna go practice.

[TomInME]

Some of the key points here:
Playing more makes you more efficient with the air you have.
Tension with breathing is not good.
Lung capacity is generally limited by your body measurements.
Most players don't fully utilize what they have.

Not sure where I learned this but to find where your limit really is, inhale as deeply as possible (inflate like a balloon, or whatever mental image works for you) and then sip sip sip (with an open throat - only your lips provide resistance) until you can't sip any more. Stop if it starts to hurt at all, you're at your full capacity - make a note of it. Do this ONCE - this is a measurement, not an exercise. Now that you know where your limit is, work on quality breaths that reach the same capacity.

My personal routine is to start (almost) every day/session by inhaling as deeply as possible and as relaxed as possible, then letting the air out through the instrument (with both valves depressed) in a steady stream. I repeat this a couple times, blowing the air out faster (last time is like a fortississimo trigger B). This extra focus on air at the beginning tends to make everything else work better.

I'm also working on Gabe's points since, when playing, that's what really needs to happen.

The "timed"/counted breathing exercises I find helpful for making the inhale/exhale smooth and consistent rather than jerky and uneven. That's probably where the aerobic workouts help.

Last point for the OP: don't try to match the phrasing of smaller / more-efficient instruments, it's just physics. Having a well-supported sound is more important than obeying the curved line on the page.

[AndrewMeronek]

he started giving himself more time to take his initial breaths

YES! I figured out a while ago that the whole concept of breathing "in time" with a conductor's prep beat is not the ideal way to go; I start my inhalation in a much more relaxed way, about when the conductor even looks like he's about to be ready to give a prep. And with already-in-temp music, often I'll inhale for a full measure (depending on how fast the music is).

[AndrewMeronek]

Not sure where I learned this but to find where your limit really is, inhale as deeply as possible (inflate like a balloon, or whatever mental image works for you) and then sip sip sip (with an open throat - only your lips provide resistance) until you can't sip any more.

I do NOT advocate "sip sip sip" for learning how to play brass instruments. The moment you pinch off the air with your lips, tongue, or glottis, you are not doing anything you should be doing when playing trombone.

[marccromme]

Breathing efficiently and relaxed is one important part, for the air intake to be maximised.

Playing with controlled air stream, not loosing unnecessary air in the low registers, keeping good sound and projection at any sound level will reduce your need for air intake, and that is equally important IMHO

Finally, if you still cant make it through a long and deep phrase, accept it and find the best spot for taking some more air in. Do it as fast and elegant as you can.

Possibly make an agreement with your trombone and tuba fellows in the orchestra to cover each other, and do breaths at different points in the common phrases.

If you don't make you air intake stick out, nobody in the audience will notice

In addition, I think that some people try to use the very last percent of the air to the very end, which for me results in a lot of tension. I think its better to do two fast and relaxed breaths in almost any phrase then trying to do it in one and get stressed and worn out.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah the breathing gym stuff I've been forced to do has lots of "sip sip sip" and tension. Full grown adults and pro musicians nearly passing out (who were advocating for the exercises). Nobody plays that way.

I'm with Bousfield -- playing brass is about "blowing air" not "breathing".

[ghmerrill]

I'm with Bousfield -- playing brass is about "blowing air" not "breathing".

Yes, though I'd rather say "playing brass is about 'buzzing'" -- lest we forget the immortal "No wind needed to play a wind instrument!"

Unfortunately, we haven't been able to figure out how to do the buzzing (ourselves) without the blowing (though possibly something like a foot switch operated variable volume air compressor might work).

[TomInME]

Not sure where I learned this but to find where your limit really is, inhale as deeply as possible (inflate like a balloon, or whatever mental image works for you) and then sip sip sip (with an open throat - only your lips provide resistance) until you can't sip any more.

I do NOT advocate "sip sip sip" for learning how to play brass instruments. The moment you pinch off the air with your lips, tongue, or glottis, you are not doing anything you should be doing when playing trombone.

I don't either! That's why I said this:

Stop if it starts to hurt at all, you're at your full capacity - make a note of it. Do this ONCE - this is a measurement, not an exercise. Now that you know where your limit is, work on quality breaths that reach the same capacity.

[kbryson]

If your approach to Bass trombone is to fill it with air/out breathe it you are going to lose that battle. The instrument is just too big. Consider this: Unless you exist in a vacuum the instrument is already full of air. You don't need to fill it with anything, you simply need to provide energy to vibrate the air already in the bass trombone. That is a lot less than trying to "fill" it or blow through it. A simple experiment to demonstrate what I'm talking about: place the palm of your had about an inch from your face and say something with confidence. Notice you can hear lots, but don't feel much air moving. That is the difference I'm talking about!

Earlier in my time as a bass trombone doubleer I found Phil Teele's exercises really helpful. I've included a you tube link below if you want to check it out. Notice he's not taking gigantic breaths, but there's always a big sound coming from his horn. This comes from relaxed/efficient breathing and sends energy through the air instead of moving the air itself through the instrument. Its the approach I always see the best sounding bass trombonists use.

I am not super well-versed in the breathing gym approach, but from what I have seen it looks like it might encourage players to get over-involved in their breathing, resulting in excess tension. That excess tension will work against you when trying to play with efficient air use.

[cigmar]

As I understand it, the lungs are organs that are located in the upper chest between the ribcage, which is comprised of ribs held together by the intercostal muscles. When we inhale, the lungs expand pushing against the ribcage and causes it to expand until the intercostal muscles holding the ribs together are completed stretched. Once these muscles have expanded to their maximum range, the ribcage no longer can expand and then prevents the lungs from further expanding. They have then reached their maximum capacity for holding air. Therefore, again as I understand it, unless the intercostal muscles can be developed to be further stretched, the lungs have a finite capacity. We should though, be able to develop the intercostal muscles to be more efficient, but we can't increase lung capacity. Also, as I believe someone has mentioned before, the lungs are an organ and can not be developed in the same manner muscles can.

[Wilco]

What can help is thinking of a constant “lean” / of the airstream. This will make your playing more efficient and save air. The lean is a release of air in such a way that you lean against the resistance of the instrument. The trick is to keep leaning when you change register. Do not push! That will lead to tension and that will impact the lenght of your playable phrase.

[SimmonsTrombone]

I am starting High Intensity Interval Training for a number of health reasons. For trombone playing I think it helps strengthen the breathing muscles. I also do the walking exercise outlined above except I think breathing in two steps and out six better emulates how we play. Former Olympians Mike Gminski and Nancy Hogshead recommend that exercise for people with asthma.

[Wilco]

It might help..... but if you have a look at the physiques of the pro's you will see that most of them seem to be quite of shape and overweight.......

[Savio]

We get older and then it helps to do some exercisers. Our lungs doesn't get bigger but they work better. Efficency is a key word. We have to use the air we have carefully. One tips I got is to breath through the corners. I have struggled with this, but after some tips from Doug Elliott long time ago, I think I'm on the right track. And I try to be carefully about blowing out. Don't spend all at once. It's like money in the bank.

Leif

[Nomsis]

Just a quick update. I have done the exercises suggested by kbiggs and others a few times and I felt that it helped, probably not really for increasing the lung volume (For this I should have done it more frequently) but for increasing the awareness of the lung volume.

Those who were worried that I would loose myself in "silly breathing gym" stuff I can reassure I'm far too undisciplined for that (;

I still disagree with most of you about the general ability of our lung volume to be increased. I'm pretty sure most of us trombone players already have an increased lung volume, even more so the tuba players among us. Increased lung volume of course like in having more developed ("trained") muscles to "stretch" the lung and pump more air in. But I now came to agree with you that it is probably unnecessary to think about this and efficiency is more important.

[Slidennis]

Also, don't forget to FILL THE INSTRUMENT WITH AIR!

It's usually filled with something else??? WATER???

[ghmerrill]

Also, don't forget to FILL THE INSTRUMENT WITH AIR!

It's usually filled with something else??? WATER???

Please be serious about this. Water has been shown to be an inefficient medium for most performing musicians (other than whales and porpoises). Also, water is not compressible -- making it impossible to create a local high pressure region in the trombone body to enhance the sound, which is really the only way to get more air into the instrument at any time t. It's all about physics.

Einstein with trombone section.png

[Slidennis]

It's usually filled with something else??? WATER???

Please be serious about this. Water has been shown to be an inefficient medium for most performing musicians (other than whales and porpoises). Also, water is not compressible -- making it impossible to create a local high pressure region in the trombone body to enhance the sound, which is really the only way to get more air into the instrument at any time t. It's all about physics.


Einstein with trombone section.png

I'm so concerned with sound pollution in the ocean waters that's stressing walses and all others cetaceans !!! So, I'm serious about it.

But what I also know, is that without any trombone on lips, some musicians, some trombonists can issue a sound out of their body, for which the trombone is just a mere amplifier... :

[ghmerrill]

I'm so concerned with sound pollution in the ocean waters that's stressing walses and all others cetaceans !!! So, I'm serious about it.

Yes ... but they can be perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and imposing stress on others.

Some years ago, in the serene marshes around Bald Head Island, my wife and I (in kayaks, peacefully paddling along a quiet channel) were suddenly attacked. "Sharks!" my wife yelled, as we saw two large dorsal fins approach us in the narrow (maybe 3 meters -- for you Europeans -- wide) channel at high speed (and I mean HIGH speed). "Relax," I said, "Not sharks. Just sit still." It was two large activist/terrorist porpoises, obviously wanting to make a clear statement about sound pollution -- although our paddling wasn't making much sound. I quite literally could have put a hand down on each side of the boat and touched them as they sped past.

Worry not about the cetaceans, for they have you in their sights. Or maybe they were just chasing fish. It's difficult to separate their political motives from their feeding ones, eh?

But what I also know, is that without any trombone on lips, some musicians, some trombonists can issue a sound out of their body, for which the trombone is just a mere amplifier... :

Yeah, that would be the physics part. That guy in the picture looks a lot like me -- except I don't practice in my attic. Also, there's a MUCH better Youtube video demonstrating conclusively and in substantial detail how it isn't necessary AT ALL to blow (or otherwise propel) air through/into a trombone (or other brass instrument) in order to produce the sound. However, I'll leave finding that as an exercise for the reader.

[JTeagarden]

The best way to develop breathing is to do cyclic or aerobic sports such as jogging, swimming, cycling, etc. Christian Lindberg does yoga and runs marathons, and Charlie Vernon swims.

Exactly, and try to inhale and exhale noiselessly, you can only do this by relaxing.

As others note, the bass trombone won't get any smaller while you're trying to fill it with air, the air is a by-product of getting your lips to vibrate, you should use as little as possible to achieve the same result.

[harrisonreed]

I'm with Bousfield -- playing brass is about "blowing air" not "breathing".

Yes, though I'd rather say "playing brass is about 'buzzing'" --

It's not!

"Brass is about breathing and buzzing" as a teaching has probably led to more confusion and failed ventures into brass playing than any other pedagogical half-truth. I'm not even going to argue the case about "buzzing" being a different thing from producing a good tone -- I agree the lips flap around while you play. But how many people hear "buzz" and then completely misconstrue what that actually means? They'll be trying to "shoot" sound out of their lips like Donald Duck.

Brass playing is about finding an equilibrium between what you're pushing for air, and what the horn is pushing back on you as it vibrates. The lips just hold that equilibrium together. The embouchure as a whole directs it.

It's so vast, it's complex. The room you're in, the shape,the surfaces will send a reflected force back into the trombone while you play -- you make tiny adjustments to get the equilibrium right. "It's about buzzing" ignores everything that is happening past your lips.

You've gotta blow different depending on the kind of music, the room, how many people are in the room. Who is playing next to you. If the group is in tune or not.

You don't just "buzz" and boom there it is. There's always a force acting against you, or inertia of physical matter that you need to act against, to excite, and that force affects the movement of your lips. The energy/inertia in the horn and in the room are half of the equation of how your lips will vibrate, and you interact with those forces by sending air into the leadpipe. You don't force it with a buzz, you shape out an equilibrium.

[VJOFan]

My hunch is that the breathing exercises have a positive effect for some not as much for the increased intake of air, but for training players to keep an open posture. The body is part of the resonance too- not as much as with singers, but I don't think it's nothing either.

[ghmerrill]

Yes, though I'd rather say "playing brass is about 'buzzing'" --

It's not!

Of course you're right, in the general sense. That comment was meant only in contrast to the "fill the horn with air" model that is so entrenched.

They'll be trying to "shoot" sound out of their lips like Donald Duck.

Yeah -- which is pretty much the buzzing analog of the filling-the-horn-with-air model. I do like the technique of using an analogy to the incoherent notion of duck lips to illustrate the other incoherent notions.

[harrisonreed]

I do like the technique of using an analogy to the incoherent notion of duck lips to illustrate the other incoherent notions.

You're saying I'm incoherent? I can't disagree, if that's the case. Nobody other than Bousfield has really looked into how the room acoustic changes how your lips vibrate, and I don't think he's a physicist, either. I'm not smart enough to be of much use describing something that I just have a lucky, mostly subconscious grasp of.

[ghmerrill]

You're saying I'm incoherent?

Uh, no. The reference was to duck lips.

[harrisonreed]

You're saying I'm incoherent?

Uh, no. The reference was to duck lips.

Ah, sorry. I wouldn't really blame you if you were on that one lol. My post was all over the place.

[afugate]

Brass playing is about finding an equilibrium between what you're pushing for air, and what the horn is pushing back on you as it vibrates. The lips just hold that equilibrium together. The embouchure as a whole directs it.

It's so vast, it's complex. The room you're in, the shape,the surfaces will send a reflected force back into the trombone while you play -- you make tiny adjustments to get the equilibrium right. "It's about buzzing" ignores everything that is happening past your lips.

You've gotta blow different depending on the kind of music, the room, how many people are in the room. Who is playing next to you. If the group is in tune or not.

You don't just "buzz" and boom there it is. There's always a force acting against you, or inertia of physical matter that you need to act against, to excite, and that force affects the movement of your lips. The energy/inertia in the horn and in the room are half of the equation of how your lips will vibrate, and you interact with those forces by sending air into the leadpipe. You don't force it with a buzz, you shape out an equilibrium.

I found this useful. Thanks!
--Andy in OKC

[KingThings]

I'm a marathon runner, an opera singer, and a trombone player. I have spent many years of my life considering breath, especially as a runner and a singer. I have come to the conclusion that breathing is a very simple yet misunderstood function.

I think increasing lung capacity is not really possible in any practical way. Perhaps one can slightly increase capacity by either stretching lungs or muscles or learning to use more of the space in the lungs already available, but I doubt these would increase capacity by any measure that would serve much practical use.

What is of practical use is to increase efficiency.

In running, I think one does that by running a lot so the body can gradually be conditioned to do more work with less air. Someone who is not a runner will be huffing and puffing after a relatively short run, whereas a seasoned runner can go the same distance with normal breathing, depending of course on the pace and whether there is a hill.

So, an experienced runner can go a given distance using less air (and of course less oxygen) due to conditioning.

But this higher level of conditioning is useless if a runner still huffs and puffs. One must also apply the principle of using less air while running. One must control the breath.....by pacing breaths and breathing more slowly.

If one does not play the trombone much, the body will not be conditioned to respond to a player's demands. And, if one goes to the extreme and blows as much air as possible through a trombone, there will be no sound whatsoever, and a rapid emptying of the lungs.

Conversely, advanced players can sustain long phrases while also making a beautiful tone......they do so by using less air and by more efficient resonance. And, their regular playing increases breathing efficiency.....the body can hold the breath longer with less work.....and more playing (with proper technique) develops an embouchure and coordination of breath pressure that results in efficient use of air. The trombone itself is simply a resonator for the "buzzed" lips.

Singers who believe that we sing with lots of air may end up forcing their voices, running out of air on long phrases, and using a breathy tone. Singers who practice regularly and control their breath have longer careers.

[VJOFan]

For running a runner doesn’t exactly adapt to work with less air. The physiological adaptations around breathing are about uptake and use of oxygen.

Several things change with correct training. The volume of blood pumped each heart beat increases so more oxygenated blood is circulated. The body produces more red blood cells so there are more cells available to take up oxygen.There is a bunch of metabolic stuff that happens in the muscle cells that I don’t want to look up right now, but the gist is the cells adapt to use oxygen and fuel better. So not exactly using less air. A trained runner takes up more oxygen from each breath.

For brass playing, I think it was nailed earlier in the thread when the discussion turned to equilibrium. I played all kinds of wind instruments as a band teacher and learned quickly that each responded to a different volume and velocity of air stream. I wouldn’t exactly call it efficiency as much as sensitivity to resonance. At the same time having nice full lungs and maintaining that singer’s sense of support helps,