Bad, Slow single tounge

[OTromboy]

Hi everybody! I am new here!

I've been playing the trombone for almost 12 years. I learned it wrongly at the very beginning, with my tongue between my teeth. Then I played like that until now, needless to say, it caused me a lot of stressful situations, because it's not easy to play something fast like that. Now, on the occasion of the new year, I vowed to learn it again with the correct method, that is, when the tip of the tongue is above the upper teeth at the junction of the teeth and gums. With good air, relaxed tongue, everything. I've been doing it slowly for 2 weeks. I started playing 16th notes on the notes of the scale at a tempo of 60 and I always increase the metronome number by 2. It's normal for my max speed, if I want to play 16th notes continuously, it's around 90 with this new technique, by the way, it wasn't much more with the previous one either, but it's also quite difficult below that. The longer I play at this tempo, the more tired my tongue gets, I can't blow a kopprasch 35th etude normally, because by the middle my tongue is so tired. Maybe there is a more serious problem in the background. It's simply unrealistically difficult, no one around me has such a slow bad tongue. I don't know if it's normal that it's still so slow with this new technique in this situation or maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like some help with this.

[Doug Elliott]

Your proposed fix and practice techniques may not be the best way either. You may be able to figure it out on your own, but lessons with a competent teacher will get you there much faster.

I suggest ignoring single tongue for the moment and focusing on learning a very smooth triple and double tongue, even at the same speeds you're using for single. That will show you a better position that will eventually apply back to single.

I do lessons by Skype if you're interested.

[GabrielRice]

What Doug said 100%.

Also, tonguing between your teeth isn't necessarily wrong, and tonguing where the upper teeth meet the gum isn't necessarily right. My tongue makes different contact points in different registers and for different articulation sounds. One of the best players I know tongues basically everything at the juncture of the upper teeth and the lip.

Over the last few years I've found that my single tongue has gotten slower with age and - to be painfully honest - lack of practice. Fast single tonguing used to be easy for me, so I didn't think about it or practice it much for many years. Now I have to practice it, so I've made it part of my daily maintenance work and it's improving.

But I also multiple tongue a lot more than I used to, as Doug suggests. Sometimes I slip one or two double tongue patterns into a passage of single tonguing, which helps keep it from slowing down. With practice, I'm getting better and better at anticipating the need and double tonguing a couple of notes to keep myself on track.

And yes, you can expect your tongue to get tired from practicing in that targeted way. I don't think you can hurt yourself, but you can expect that aspect to improve even if your tonguing doesn't get much faster.

[kbryson]

Also, tonguing between your teeth isn't necessarily wrong, and tonguing where the upper teeth meet the gum isn't necessarily right.

I articulate between the teeth, and when I made the change it absolutely fixed a ton of problems in my playing. As Gabe said, it may be different for different registers and players. I advise you avoid getting too caught up with the minor details of tongue placement, and instead focus on the goal and results of the sound your making. Get some recordings of your favorite trombonists articulating clearly and try to emulate that. Start slowly with your focus on the auditory goal. Single attacks first, then two, then three and four. Once you are getting the sound you want predictably start to speed it up or move it to different registers, but only introduce those changes gradually so that you don't lose whatever nice sound you've achieved while working slowly.

To give you a nice analogy of how this all works, English speakers don't necessarily think about where the tongue goes when speaking a word that begins with "T". When learning the "T" none of us were instructed (at the age of 2) to place our tongue in a certain place. We all learned by emulating the adults around us. Learn by emulating the many recordings we have of amazing trombonists in different genres!

Happy practicing.

[Kbiggs]

A. The tongue is a group of muscles that work together. When we over-use muscles, we feel stiff, sore, weak, or slow. Like Doug said, stop practicing the rapid single-tonguing for a little while. Muscles that aren’t given sufficient recovery time tend to feel weak or unstable, and get tired quickly. They’re also prone to injury. Believe me, you don’t want to sprain a muscle in your tongue!

B. When learning something new, it’s common for the muscles (and brain and psyche!) to complain. You’ve been tonguing one way for a long time, and now you are deliberately re-learning how to tongue, but differently than before. Give it time.

C. I may be assuming here, but it sounds like you also play with some tension. Actively and mindfully releasing tension and addressing it when you notice it is key to re-learning to play. Yes, there is tension when we play, but only what is necessary with the correct muscles to make the right sound at the right time in the most efficient way possible.

D. I’m probably also assuming that Doug will address tongue position/syllables. For me, the hard “T” syllable introduces tension at the start of a note, so I avoid it unless the note calls for an explosive attack. My tonguing and consistency increased when I started using a softer syllable, especially when beginning a phrase or series of notes. I like using “D” or “N” or “L” to start notes now. It’s easier to keep the air flowing, and it’s easier to shape the beginning of a note.

My single-tonguing has also decreased with time and, like Gabe mentioned, I also occasionally double-tongue to make sure I don’t drag. My tonguing may be slower than it was, but it’s cleaner.

Best of luck, and take that lesson with Doug!

[Burgerbob]

I've found many of my articulation woes were from response, not my tongue.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, articulation problems are almost always actually response problems.
But that's not necessarily true for speed problems.
When you work on double and triple, you cut the speed in half so it's much easier.

[tbdana]

What's a response problem? I'm not sure what response means in this context.

[Doug Elliott]

When the sound is slow to start and you think it's your tonguing but it's really that your chops aren't ready to vibrate

[tbdana]

Ah. Got it. Thanks.

[OTromboy]

Your proposed fix and practice techniques may not be the best way either. You may be able to figure it out on your own, but lessons with a competent teacher will get you there much faster.

I suggest ignoring single tongue for the moment and focusing on learning a very smooth triple and double tongue, even at the same speeds you're using for single. That will show you a better position that will eventually apply back to single.

I do lessons by Skype if you're interested.

Yes! A lesson would be great. Just i can’t send you private massage because maybe i am new on this website or i don’t know.

[BGuttman]

>>Yes! A lesson would be great. Just i can’t send you private massage because maybe i am new on this website or i don’t know.

You need 3 approved messages to be able to send and receive Private Messages.

But Doug can always be contacted through his Web Site, www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com. Use the Contact Us link.

[OTromboy]

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for all the tips and advice! So, if I understood correctly, I shouldn’t force this little routine I came up with after my morning warm-up? It takes about 10 minutes, and afterward, I feel that my tongue is a bit tired, but after a couple of months, this doesn’t help strengthen the muscles in my tongue that I didn’t use due to the articulation technique I initially developed? But besides that, it would be great to learn double and triple tonguing so that it sounds as smooth as single tonguing, even at a tempo of around 90, if that’s possible. Since I’m currently a music academy student, it would be great to get rid of this burden, as it causes me a lot of stress. It’s especially frustrating because I’m satisfied with all my other skills, and this is the only area where I’m really struggling. Dough Eliott, I’d really appreciate it if we could discuss the lesson privately, but for now, I’m unable to initiate a private message. Besides that, I’m also happy to receive advice or any additional input on the topic from anyone else!

[tbdana]

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for all the tips and advice! So, if I understood correctly, I shouldn’t force this little routine I came up with after my morning warm-up? It takes about 10 minutes, and afterward, I feel that my tongue is a bit tired, but after a couple of months, this doesn’t help strengthen the muscles in my tongue that I didn’t use due to the articulation technique I initially developed? But besides that, it would be great to learn double and triple tonguing so that it sounds as smooth as single tonguing, even at a tempo of around 90, if that’s possible. Since I’m currently a music academy student, it would be great to get rid of this burden, as it causes me a lot of stress. It’s especially frustrating because I’m satisfied with all my other skills, and this is the only area where I’m really struggling. Dough Eliott, I’d really appreciate it if we could discuss the lesson privately, but for now, I’m unable to initiate a private message. Besides that, I’m also happy to receive advice or any additional input on the topic from anyone else!

Actually, because that was your third post, I believe you are now able to initiate private messages. Give it a try!

[imsevimse]

Hello OP!

I try to keep the post short since I have written this recently in another thread that Dana started that is also about slow single tounge.

Try "ta-da-ta-da ta-da-ta-da" if that helps or "ta-ra-ta-ra ta-ra-ta-ra". It is kind of a double tounge but if you smooth it out with practice the two strikes will be more equal and for me these two was what helped my slow single tounge go from sixteenths in bpm 96 to over 120. I do not know what my limit is at the moment but it is probably around 126.

It is true it could also be a sound problem that causes this and many other things, but suppose it is just the speed then this might help.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

Nougat is a family of confections made with sugar or honey, roasted nuts, whipped egg whites, and sometimes chopped candied fruit. (Wikipedia)

Say "nougat nougat nougat nougat nougat"
That's double tonguing.

[OTromboy]

I found that if I say the letter N while playing, I can take my tongue out much more easily. The main cause of this problem is that my tongue automatically wants to press against my teeth and I always have to fight to take it out, even if I blow a lot of even air. That’s why it is slow. I have a hard time getting my tongue to relax, so getting a feel for it helps a bit.

[OTromboy]

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for all the tips and advice! So, if I understood correctly, I shouldn’t force this little routine I came up with after my morning warm-up? It takes about 10 minutes, and afterward, I feel that my tongue is a bit tired, but after a couple of months, this doesn’t help strengthen the muscles in my tongue that I didn’t use due to the articulation technique I initially developed? But besides that, it would be great to learn double and triple tonguing so that it sounds as smooth as single tonguing, even at a tempo of around 90, if that’s possible. Since I’m currently a music academy student, it would be great to get rid of this burden, as it causes me a lot of stress. It’s especially frustrating because I’m satisfied with all my other skills, and this is the only area where I’m really struggling. Dough Eliott, I’d really appreciate it if we could discuss the lesson privately, but for now, I’m unable to initiate a private message. Besides that, I’m also happy to receive advice or any additional input on the topic from anyone else!

Actually, because that was your third post, I believe you are now able to initiate private messages. Give it a try!

it is still not working

[OTromboy]

Nougat is a family of confections made with sugar or honey, roasted nuts, whipped egg whites, and sometimes chopped candied fruit. (Wikipedia)

Say "nougat nougat nougat nougat nougat"
That's double tonguing.

Hi Dough! Can you send me a private massage to discuss the private lesson? Because i can’t send pm yet.

[BGuttman]

Hi Dough! Can you send me a private massage to discuss the private lesson? Because i can’t send pm yet.

You should be able to send a PM now.

[JTeagarden]

Your proposed fix and practice techniques may not be the best way either. You may be able to figure it out on your own, but lessons with a competent teacher will get you there much faster.

I suggest ignoring single tongue for the moment and focusing on learning a very smooth triple and double tongue, even at the same speeds you're using for single. That will show you a better position that will eventually apply back to single.

I do lessons by Skype if you're interested.

Perfect suggestion! I find the double tongueing kind of forces you to have a properly placed embouchure, since the faster tonguing gives you too little time to reposition a displaced embouchure. Whatever you do to make it work properly helps everywhere else, too.

If you can double tongue faster off the horn than on it (assume tonguing a single note), your tonguing problem is actually something else!

[JTeagarden]

I have been making a concerted effort to double or triple tongue any moving lines in practice, and I am finding that it tires out my embouchure a lot less than single tonguing.

Single tonguing seems to displace the embouchure with every articulation in a way that double or triple tonguing does not, and this displacement tires out the chops, I can practice longer this way.

[JTeagarden]

Double- and triple-tonguing also forces you to use a smaller and more efficient aperture, because doing this fast means moving your tongue as short a distance as possible, so making sure your slow double- and triple-tonguing is the same as doing it fast will make sure there's a connnection, and not a break between the different speeds.

People talk about there being a need for an overlap between single and multiple tonguing speeds, but not sure why this is a thing, unless you really move your tongue out of the way after articulating with a single tongue.

[fetterbrass]

Without the horn and mouthpiece check your breath. You want an open AH, both in and out, before, during and after. Listen for any unh, hunh kah, hah. The pipe should be open from your face back and down into your lungs.

Breathe in through an already open relaxed free AH and add a light clear T as you breathe out with the pure AH. Play a middle register long tone this way.

Check your posture. Stand with your back against a flat wall. Stand tall. Playing seated tends to fold us up, to shorten us.

Avoid any catch in your AH as you breathe in and out.