What is the best way to become the best player you can be?

[tbdana]

What's the secret to becoming great? Why do some and not others?

[Fidbone]

If that “secret” were to be common knowledge then we would have a great deal more superstars. Btw, what is your definition of Great?

[Savio]

What's the secret to becoming great? Why do some and not others?

I'm not exactly great so I just have to guess a little. I think to listen and experience a really great player close is a must. Not recordings but to observe and listen them live. Also to play with great players. Of course also listen recordings but to listen alive in the same room is something completely different. It can make a "fire" inside us to really work to become a great player.

Practice and teacher is so big subject so its not easy to tell about it. But we all need it?

Leif

[Matt K]

Across a variety of disciplines, I’ve worked with people who have been naturally talented through those who had little natural talent. There isn’t a ton of correlation between the “great” and the “not great for natural talent”. That isn’t to say it’s non existent, but what I’ve observed is that there is a huge difference between wanting to be great and deciding to be great.

[harrisonreed]

I'm not so sure that "hard work and study" correlates quite as much with being a great brass player as people wish it did.

How many great players do you hear about who win a big job before they even finish school? Or C Lindberg starting to play at 17 and then winning one of the most prestigious concerto competitions in the world only a few years later, beating out all other categories of instruments.

"I have worked very hard"

Well yeah, of course, but ...

I think some people get lucky and blessed with a natural understanding of playing mechanics, good ears, and innate musicality. In that vein, I can't phrase music like Lang Lang. I don't think anyone taught him that. Not a brass player, but maybe you get my point.

If there is anything to work at earnestly, it probably does have to do more with making musical decisions and artistic decisions, and getting the music into your bones, rather than doing lip slurs

[imsevimse]

1) First some luck to get some crucial technical things correct right from the start or the luck to get a teacher who points you in the right direction when you pick up the instrument. Later in life the luck to meet with the right people.

2) Musical talent, like good ears and good sense of rythm. Patience, good physics like good reactions and body coordination and a long back with good lungs, arms that can reach, and over all good physics and no major health problems and of course equipped with good intelligence. I think all this helps a lot and most comes from good genes.

3) Total commitment, like Christian Lindbergh. All he does has a musical purpose and he does it 24-7.

4) You need to be an extrovert and maybe also some ADHD to go along with that. This is what I believe and have seen. You need to take on projects that seem impossible to normal people. This will eventually make you known.

5) You need to have full support so you do not need to worry about food on the table. You need someone to look after you, like a caring spouse or a family that share your dreams and pushes you forward through your years of struggle before your career takes on.

When I read my own list I understand why I didn't make it.

/Tom

[Matt K]

I very much intentionally did not phrase what I said as "hard work." I've known many VERY naturally talented players and there is some overlap but the ones that "made it" ALL had not only good work ethic but had - like I said - "decided" that that's what they wanted.

Lindberg did not get where he was ONLY because he was talented, he had a very focused mindset and routine. I can think of at least three other "top" players who have given very similar answers to me: Alessi, Conrad Herwig, and Matt Niess. It's not just about the work, it's about deciding what you want, determining the cost to get there, and setting out to achieve that.


Doug Yeo has a great write up on this on his site that says it far better than I ever could:

https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... dards.html

When I was in college I didn't have two nickels to rub together. I worked three jobs while going to school full time. I worked so hard I came out with no debt. I went through college in three years (including two summers) and took 20-24 credit hours each quarter. But even though I had virtually no money, I made choices. I chose to go hear the Chicago Symphony regularly. I chose to purchase records and scores. I chose not to spend money going to the movies. I chose not to have a high long distance phone bill.

...

You choose to drink beer on the weekends. That's your choice. But if you were to say that you can't afford to buy a score of the Mozart Requiem, that would not be true - it simply is that you have allocated your resources in a way that you choose to do something else instead. Paying for beer is a higher priority than something else. You choose to go to the college you currently attend while there are certainly colleges that are less expensive. You have weighed the advantages of having more disposable income vs. the quality of education you want and you have chosen to go where you are. But that is a choice, and had you chosen differently, you could do different things. Except for the truly impoverished who struggle to have shelter and food, everyone makes lifestyle choices that allow them to afford the things they consider most important. This is an undeniable fact of life.

This is not a bad thing - but it is a choice. And when we make free-will choices, we cannot be victims of those choices.

My comments on preparing for a music career are primarily directed towards those who aspire to full time orchestra careers, and you are right that my comments do not apply to all trombonists. The goal of an orchestral career requires a singlemindedness of purpose that is all too rare. What students who wish to get in orchestras need to do is understand the standards.

...

You may well be a well rounded human, as you say, and that is to be commended. The level of discipline you have set for yourself on the trombone will carry you to a certain point and you may well be perfectly satisfied with that point. And that is FINE! But my deep concern after over 20 years of teaching is that many young players feel that a minimal level of commitment and dedication will automatically result in the highest paying, best quality job. That is naive and uninformed it is also untrue.

Now, if players want to be amateurs, or entry level freelancers, I do not apply that same high standard to them. This is why the first question I ask a student is "what do you want to do?" If they say they want to get as good as they can, do a little freelancing and maybe play in a quintet that does gigs now and then, I apply a totally different standard with that kind of student than I would with a student who said, "I want to play in the Boston Symphony." Neither choice is better or more virtuous than another.

...

Music is my vocation - it is also my hobby. I also do many other things with my life - I am an avid cyclist, I enjoy time on the computer, I write dozens of articles a year, I am active in my church, I do things with my family regularly. My life is extremely well balanced and I encourage others to do the same. I do not practice the horn 5 hours a day. But at the time in my life when I was actively pursuing an orchestral position, my life was not so balanced because I realized that I needed to make major sacrifices in order to attain my goal. I knew that after I attained it, I would then have the opportunity to do things I never dreamed of. Getting in the Boston Symphony has meant making music at a wonderfully high level with the greatest conductors and soloists of the world, a great paycheck, opportunities to see the world, recordings, TV, you name it. When I was a student, I denied myself many of the things my peers were doing in order to devote myself to the study of music. It was difficult to say "no" to them sometimes when I really wanted to do something with them, but I had to balance my goals with the time I had. Obviously it paid off for me, and many of them have spoken to me over the years, lamenting the fact that they did not exercise more discipline at an important time in their lives. They have regrets.

There's likewise a great interview with Conrad about the trade-offs he had to make:
https://bobreeves.com/blog/conrad-herwig-interview/

[tbdana]

To follow up on the Doug Yeo quote, I found something Tom Ervin wrote many, many years ago to be a wake-up call. He basically said that if you go to auditions there will be people you're competing against who have been practicing 5 hours a day, and only one of you is going to win that audition. It was a cold realization.

Screenshot 2025-02-16 at 8.05.32 AM.png

As for Conrad, I didn't listen to the interview, but I know him to have been a hard worker back in the day. He took my chair on Buddy Rich's band after I quit. I know that he practiced a lot even on the road, which is challenging and something not everyone has the dedication to do. I didn't.

[Finetales]

I'm not so sure that "hard work and study" correlates quite as much with being a great brass player as people wish it did.

I agree and disagree.

I have met professionals who play at a world-class level and will freely admit that they had no natural talent at all. Nothing came easily as they were learning to play, and they lagged behind their peers in school. But they pushed through that barrier by hustling twice as hard as the next person, and now they are well-known players. It's that "deciding to be great" that Matt mentioned.

I have also met other professionals who play at a world-class level and never really practiced that much. That's natural talent, it comes easily.

The playing field is absolutely not equal to start. Everyone's body and face is different. There's an interview with Roger Ingram where he talks about when he was first handed a trumpet as a young kid and the first note he played was some high note way above the staff that most trumpet players can't play at all. You can put in as many hours as you want and become a fabulous lead trumpet player, but for most people it will never come as naturally as it does for Roger.

All that being said, to become a truly great player (the point of this thread), many hours of focus and dedication are required for even the most naturally talented players. Once you get to the highest levels, the playing field is evened somewhat because you can't get there without putting in the time.

And of course, not everyone who plays at a high level gets work. There are plenty of amazing players who never become professionals, either because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because they choose to keep music a hobby. There are also plenty of amazing professionals who are relatively unknown, because they choose to stay in a small scene. I think of cats like Joey Tartell - phenomenal lead trumpet player who could play with the best of them in LA, NYC, or London, but instead stakes his claim in Indiana.

I don't believe "making it" equals greatness at all, but if that's your criteria, well...there's also a lot of networking and luck involved. There are only so many gigs to go around, even in the large markets. When the list of players who could do the gig at the highest level is long, putting in the hours will only get you so far. Ditto for the orchestral audition circuit...there are way more qualified players than positions, and every committee is listening for something different.

As Captain Picard said, “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.”

[Bach5G]

There seems to have been an abundance of literature produced in recent years regarding learning to perform at a very high level, much of it appearing in my FB feed along with the promise that in exchange for payment of a certain number of dollars, I can finally break through and develop Monster Chops (TM). The best of this stuff seems to be all about directed learning, focused practice, 10,000 hours etc and related to the work of Anders Ericsson (not quite sure about the name) as popularized (poorly but profitably) by Malcolm Gladwell. Basically, the right kind of learning, guided in the right way by the right kind of teacher. And 10,000 hours of the right kind of practice. But I’m still pretty sure that a bit of talent, whatever that is, helps.

[tbdana]

I wonder how much having the right facial structure helps.

[Finetales]

I wonder how much having the right facial structure helps.

Facial structure matters a great deal. There's a reason we all play different mouthpiece sizes. Instrument petting zoos when you join band in elementary school aren't just for you to see which instruments you like, but also to see which ones your face naturally likes best. But just like having natural talent, facial structure ultimately isn't the end-all.

There's a reason lead trumpeters often have thin lips. But I've also played with lead trumpeters with thick lips that can play as well as anybody. You make it work.

[Bach5G]

Facial structure, pitch, rhythm. Maybe a bit of OCD or Asperger focus?

Peter Steiner talked about practicing 7 hours a day.

[justatrombonist]

To be completely honest, the main way to be the best player you can be has to do with how you approach your instrument, and whether you are willing to make sacrifices to play it as often as you can. My old band director Stephen Panoff said most professionals practice six to seven hours a day, but as I said before, it all depends on the player. The very least you can do is have your mouthpiece with you to make sure you can work with your embouchure daily, as that has helped me over the last 8 years of playing my horn. And I even have to balance this out with doing percussion too!

[tbdana]

When I was in my 20s I practiced 8 hours a day. Treated it like a full-time job. And my improvement wasn't incremental, it was like a rocket ship.

Now, approaching 70 years old and still recently back to playing, I am struggling to get in 4 hours a day. I can't imagine practicing 7-8 hours a day anymore. But I think you guys are right about that. There is no substitute for flight time. Someone who practices 1 hour a day, every day with no days off, will get 365 hours of experience in one year, whereas the person practicing 8 hours a day will get 2,920 hours of experience in that same year. And that makes a huge difference.

[Mr412]

As for me, I don't count hours played, I count achievements made. And I take one complete day off a week. I look forward to the one day off and the subsequent return, with a renewed spirit.

[harrisonreed]

There are very few people who could practice 8 hours a day and have even half of it be effective practice.

It can be done, but I've heard about people who have mental breakdowns when they are that focused on one thing.

[musicofnote]

You already are the best player YOU can be. And you can only be the best player you can be. It's not on anyone else. Even with the best teacher, best motivation, if the genetics are right, you will only be the best YOU can be. If the genetic are perfect, you study with the best, you still will only be the best you can be and no better.

the important question should be: could I have done better and would THAT have made me better? But no matter the answer to that one, you're still only as good as you can/could have be/been. No better.

[KurtEide]

I think a woefully underutilized way to improve your trombone playing as well as your overall musicianship is active and deliberate listening. Many players will cram long tones and lip slurs for hours, but without a strong concept of sound developed from hours and hours of studying sound, they are walking a road to nowhere.

There are a few metaphors to simplify this, my favorite is the Chef.

Imagine going out to a nice restaurant, and you see your favorite food on the menu. If your server mentions "The Chef makes that dish all the time, and he's never tasted it!", how confident are you that the dish will be any good? Certainly not in the way that you imagine it.

Consider your listening habits to be your "musical diet." The greatest gains in my practice didn't come when I was doing the most Arban exercises in the most perfect way imaginable. The greatest gains came when I was listening to my favorite recordings of my favorite players, studying their approaches, and building the most vivid concept of my ideal sound and THEN applying it to the horn.

[Savio]

You already are the best player YOU can be. And you can only be the best player you can be. It's not on anyone else.

It's maybe the truth for some of us like me. But not for all young players that have the future in front of them. They are one the road. It's obvious they have the opportunity to go on a great journey?

Denis Wick once told you have to take one year of your music education and practice 8 hours a day. I believe you have to. What about correct practice and right teacher? For you? And talent?

About talent and physical aspects. I think you need some degree of talent, and some degree of facial structure to be great. But it's obvious when such players like Bud Herseth go through an injury and still make it as one of the greatest trumpet player ever; everything is possible.

Talents can go both ways. I experienced some very talented that think they don't have to work, and they fall quickly. Some other talented works because they have a musical goal. Why is it some of the most talented and successful players still advice us to do basic and listen as much as possible?

Teachers! I'm a teacher myself, mostly for young kids. The more I teach, the more I realise how big responsibility it is. But of course with kids some of my goals are to make them love and experience all kind of music. In fact I have seen teachers that can make kids hate music.
I think a good teacher is necessary. And the right one!

Most of all is in my first post in this thread. You have to experience really great playing close, or be in an environment of great players. So you get an inside fire to be a good player. We have to want it our self. And the will to work for it.

In the end if we dont became the greatest..hemm...we have our family. My wife always love my playing and it means a lot!

Leif

[VJOFan]

There are two questions: the subject line and the OP content. For the second question, how to be great, the answers above cover it well. It’s a crap shoot with a huge number of factors coming into play differently for different people.

For the first question about attaining one’s personal potential I think the answer is that maybe that isn’t always a good goal.

I once listened to a barbell lifting coach relating an interesting response he gave to a new student who asked if he could one day squat 450 pounds. His answer was that he guessed it was possible but in reality he hoped it didn’t happen. He knew the focus and sacrifice it would take for this lifter to get to that weight. The lifter was just a guy who wanted to get stronger. The trade offs he would have to make to be the best squatter he could possibly be, weren’t worth it on a personal or even a fitness level. If he squatted 450, a lot of life and other strength goals would have been shelved.

If I were to try to be the best trombonist I could be at this point in my life, my marriage would be strained, my work performance would suffer and I would suffer financially. I know how to optimize for my present circumstances, but I’m not getting to my best any time soon or likely ever again.