Tenor with G-Attachment

[Tooloud]

I do not know, if this has been discussed before. If so, please post the link to the thread, thank you!

So: I am thinking about getting myself a tenor trombone with the attachment tuned to G.
Why? For lower parts I use my bass, so I do not need the versatilitiy of an F-Attachment below the staff. But oftentimes I think it could come in more handy, if I can play for example f sharp in 2 instead of 5, g in 1 and so on.
For example: d: 1, e: 2, f sharp 2; g: 1; a: 2... It could reduce the use of long ways on the slide, so from e in 2 to f sharp on 5.
Do you get the picture?
Has this been done before? If not, why not? Are there any disadvantages, if the parts are in the typical tenor range?
Do I think totally wrong?

Thank you for your helpful thoughts, they might eventually save me a lot of money....

[harrisonreed]

There are multiple threads on this. Just use the search function

[elmsandr]

Welcome to the club. As Harrison said, many threads. And check out posts from Sesquitone , aka the worldwide leading proponent of the tenor G attachment.

Cheers,
Andy

[Slidennis]

I cut the F att tubing of a King 4BF many years ago to make me a cheap and fonctional G att.
It worked really fine. And sold that tbone some time after that.

Think is, I concentrate on so many more aspects of music making with a trombone nowadays, that I tend to eliminate all that can interfere with the automatic slide movements I learned as a muscle memory I can rely on... And for the sake of easiness of use and of sound production, I really think the straight trombone is now the best option available to me, as I also use a lot of so called "alternate" positions, to play as much "against the grain" whenever I can...

My $0.02...

[tromboneVan]

Noah just listed a G-attachment Bach 36. It might be a good option to test the waters of a G-attachment before doing any serious modifications to one of your horns.

https://brassark.com/sale_horns/vincent ... m-g-valve/

[BGuttman]

If you have a King trombone with F-attachment you can modify it to G by removing both attachment slides and reinstalling one of them on the two pipes going directly into the valve. You will have to remove the brace on the tuning slide because there will be a clearance issue.

[Tooloud]

Thank you for your hints!
Why does no professional builder offer such an option, if it's not as uncommon as I had (! -Sesquitone is really information an theory overkill ) thought?
@slidennis: It's been almost fitiy years of playing trombone. I think,my muscle memory should be okay by now. But when playing tenor, I just wondered, why the bass is much easier to play in the middle range with the valves.
I didn't notice this in the past, because back then we were ordered to use as little valve as possible. That has changed, it seems-

[BGuttman]

I think the F valve on a trombone has become similar to the Bb valve on the French Horn -- a very commonly used accessory. Originally it was intended to be an "easy" C (C3) and a few notes below the bass staff. But players are beginning to see that an appropriately tuned valve can improve virtuosity.

[Finetales]

If you have a King trombone with F-attachment you can modify it to G by removing both attachment slides and reinstalling one of them on the two pipes going directly into the valve. You will have to remove the brace on the tuning slide because there will be a clearance issue.

Not all King F attachments. Some don't have the right distance between the two slides to work. My 3BF can't do it, while my 607 can.

Why does no professional builder offer such an option, if it's not as uncommon as I had (! -Sesquitone is really information an theory overkill ) thought?

Because there's no market for it. The few people interested in G valves have them custom made and that covers the market. Of course it's also a bit of chicken-and-egg situation, being as there would likely be more interest in G valves if more players had the chance to try one. In fact, I think many players would use them if they were widely available.

Holton did make a factory horn with G attachment, the TR-650. But that was a student model that nobody cared about, so it barely counts.

Are there any disadvantages, if the parts are in the typical tenor range?
Do I think totally wrong?

I'm not going to give the whole spiel that I and Sesquitone have given many times at this point, but to distill it down to the most basic explanation:

Advantages - the G valve is useful almost a full octave higher than the F valve is, and you really only lose one note (low Db). It allows you the same agility in the staff as you have in the octave above the staff.

Disadvantages - if you do need to play below the staff a lot, the G valve is definitely more cumbersome than the F valve. I've used my G tenors on a few gigs thus far, and I unintentionally brought them to gigs where there were low Es, Ds, etc. For those moments I would have rather had an F valve, but it was still totally playable. But in the parts in the staff, having the G valve was SO nice and I was overall happy to have chosen the G over the F.

I think the perfect solution is a G valve with an alternate slide for F. Keep it in G by default, and when you get an errant low tenor part, swap in the F slide.

[AtomicClock]

I think the perfect solution is a G valve with an alternate slide for F. Keep it in G by default, and when you get an errant low tenor part, swap in the F slide.

Once a decade or so, I see a tenor part with low B's. So throw in an Eb slide as well.

[Finetales]

I think the perfect solution is a G valve with an alternate slide for F. Keep it in G by default, and when you get an errant low tenor part, swap in the F slide.

Once a decade or so, I see a tenor part with low B's. So throw in an Eb slide as well.

A friend of mine has an Edwards tenor whose valve can be tuned to Gb, F, or Eb. He uses all three!

Personally, my preferred solution to that problem is a second valve.

[BGuttman]

If you have a King trombone with F-attachment you can modify it to G by removing both attachment slides and reinstalling one of them on the two pipes going directly into the valve. You will have to remove the brace on the tuning slide because there will be a clearance issue.

Not all King F attachments. Some don't have the right distance between the two slides to work. My 3BF can't do it, while my 607 can.

I was able to do it with a 4B and a 5B. Trombone Forum member Anthony Cecena reported being able to do it with his 3B.

[Finetales]

Not all King F attachments. Some don't have the right distance between the two slides to work. My 3BF can't do it, while my 607 can.

I was able to do it with a 4B and a 5B. Trombone Forum member Anthony Cecena reported being able to do it with his 3B.

It doesn't work with my 1480 either. 3 Kings I've owned (605F, 607, 607) can do it, 3 Kings I've owned (3BF, 1480, 1480) cannot. It being a King is not a guarantee that it will work, the wrap changed over the years.

[elmsandr]

Not all King F attachments. Some don't have the right distance between the two slides to work. My 3BF can't do it, while my 607 can.

I was able to do it with a 4B and a 5B. Trombone Forum member Anthony Cecena reported being able to do it with his 3B.

Not all 3B wraps are the same, Bruce.

Cheers,
Andy

[Sesquitone]

For example: d: 1, e: 2, f sharp 2; g: 1; a: 2... It could reduce the use of long ways on the slide, so from e in 2 to f sharp on 5.
Do you get the picture?
Has this been done before? If not, why not? Are there any disadvantages, if the parts are in the typical tenor range?

The minor-third attachment is not (primarily) designed to provided shorter positions in the low-tenor range. Although this was the objective of the Holton TR-650 designed by Mark McDunn back in the late 1950s. A student instrument for very young students (with short arms). This has a full-length (Bb tenor) slide, which is unnecessary for this purpose. A shorter slide, still reaching down to the standard tenor low compass (E2) is much easier for very young students to handle (much better balanced). Unfortunately, Holton did not make a comparable professional Bb/G model (for teachers), so it never caught on.

But, as Fintales has explained, the main advantage is to offer you the same slide agility in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor range as you already have with slide-alone harmonics above the fourth harmonic. Notes an octave apart are essentially in the same nominal slide positions. This is because of the way the slide-alone and and minor-third attachment harmonics interleave in a very uniform way. Much more so than with the conventional P4 attachment.

For a tenor-only player, the logical choice is Bb/G. Some players shy away from playing MORE attachment alternates because they have a reputation for being of lower quality compared to slide-alone tones of the same sound-path length. [I won't go into why (or how) this is no longer true.]

Another logical choice for a tenor-only player is C/A, which has exactly the same low compass (E2) as the standard Bb instrument without attachment (plus a couple of extra bonus pedals). This is a wonderful lead instrument of great carrying power, paralleling the C trumpet often used by principal players.

Also, of course, Eb/C for literature in the alto range.

For someone who doubles on tenor and bass, the logical choice is Bb/G for the tenor and a bass with dual inline valves [with compatible thumb-trigger] tuned either:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
or
Bb/G(thumb)-Eb(finger)-Db(double)

The latter is compatible with the "European" tuning of F contras: F/D(thumb)-Bb(finger)-Ab(double)
[Although, in my opinion, a "real" bass tuned G/E(thumb)-C(finger)-Bb(double) would be well worth exploring.]

For someone who routinely plays literature covering a very wide range, a dual inline valve tenorbass (with appropriate bore) with either of the above bass tunings is what Alan Charlesworth and I used to call the "Ultimate Recital Instrument". See picture. Bach 42 bell. Dual-bore slide (13.9 mm/14.3 mm) matched to 14.3 mm (open-wrap) attachments. Note that the (thumb-trigger operated) G attachment is 'downstream' of the (finger-trigger operated) E attachment and neatly fits inside the main bell loop. The E is tuned 20¢ sharp, giving a perfectly in-tune D double.




.

[Sesquitone]

I think the perfect solution is a G valve with an alternate slide for F. Keep it in G by default, and when you get an errant low tenor part, swap in the F slide.

Let me go one step further (pun intended). The "perfect" (single instrument) solution is a Bb/G(natural) tuning with a wrap geometry designed to take an alternate crook tuned to E flat. Then if you show up at a gig intending to play standard tenor repertoire (lowest note E2, plus pedals) with Bb/G tuning (lowest non-pedal note D2) and see that there are some "errant" notes (Db2, C2, B1, plus pedals), you can swap in the Eb crook for that piece. [A Bb/Eb tuning is continuously chromatic and is no more difficult to play (in terms of long positions) than an attachment-less Bb tenor.] Otherwise, bring along both your lightweight C/A tenor (lowest note E2, plus additional pedals C2 and B1, but missing Eb2, D2, and Db2) and your (inline) dual-valve Bb/G-E-D or Bb/G-Eb-Db tenorbass. [Another possibility that is worth exploring is the C/A tenor with a wrap geometry designed to take an F crook (the longest positions—for Db and Gb— are about the same as for sixth position in Bb).]