Günter Frost Custom Bb/C/F Tenor-Bass Trombone by Jürgen Voigt

[Matt K]

So I made this post in response to what I thought someone was talking about but turned out I misread what they were saying. On the phone with TurboTax after finding a really stupid bug they have in one of their forms... so my brain is a little scrambled at the moment and I've been listening to the same four awful jingles for like 6 hours today as I bounce around their customer support only to be told that they have no earthly idea why the bug is happening but it's definitely a bug. I digress.

So this is a really cool horn, in either case! Check it out:

That was a "Günter Frost Custom Bb/C/F Tenor-Bass Trombone by Jürgen Voigt". You can see it on the Horn Guys facebook page:


I also attached the pictures for Historical purposes. In addition, if you use the wayback machine you can find the following information:

[quote]
This horn has sold, but it's such an interesting instrument that we left this up for historical information.

This is a rare small bore tenor-bass trombone built by Jürgen Voigt in Markneukirchen, Germany. This was made specially for Günter Frost of Berlin. Frost is a proponent of the Bb/C trombone, made possible by an ascending rotary valve. The trombone stands in Bb, but if you press the rotor, it goes up to C. As you can read below, there are several benefits for young students, soloists, and bass trombonists. Frost offered 5 models of Bb/C and Bb/C/F trombones.

The concept is not unheard of. Thein Brass in Bremen, Germany also produces both a Bb/C tenor trombone (and a Bb/C/F tenor-bass) like this:

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Yamaha offers a Bb/C trombone, the model YSL-350C, which is designed for compact travel. The design also permits an easier reach to the C and B for diminutive players without the weight of an F-attachment.

Yamaha writes:

Many students are fascinated by the trombone. It has a strong and pleasing tone which can slide smoothly from note to note, and it's visually exciting—-it looks fun! But unlike most other instruments, most trombones cannot be played by small students. Modern trombones were designed for adults, and many would-be beginners just can't stretch their arms far enough to play all the slide positions. That's why we created the Yamaha 350C. This is a full-sized trombone, using the traditional slide positions, but it's much shorter in length. With its ascending valve, you can play a full scale without using the two farthest positions!


Yamaha YSL-350C

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Examination
This trombone looks to be a Frost model 2, but with the additional F-attachment option usually seen on the model 5. We purchased it as used, but it's in mint condition with no signs of wear. A case is sold separately.

The dual bore 12.4-12.7 mm hand slide is made in all nickel. The left hand brace is curved for a comfortable grip. A removable brass mouthpipe is press fitted into the upper slide tube. Of interest is that the top inside slide tube does not go all the way to the top end of the cork barrel. It ends early, creating a larger space inside the cork barrel. This allows a larger expansion of the mouthpipe than would normally fit inside a 12.4mm slide tube. The benefits? Well, you're going to love this:

A mouthpiece by Werner Chr. Schmidt in Markneukirchen, Germany is included. It is a model GFB1R, and the outside of the shank is turned to a custom diameter, somewhere in between a small bore trombone shank and a medium Willson euphonium shank. A Bach 7C drops in too far, while a Wick Steven Mead mouthpiece only inserts about 12mm.

Obviously, if you want to play around with mouthpiece selection, you'll need an adapter, some tape, or better, buy a King 2B mouthpipe and have it installed. The far end can be flared the miniscule 0.09 mm for a tight fit.

The bell section with its 200 mm flare is made of all gold brass with nickel trim. The rotor casings are also nickel, which reduces opportunities for corrosion. Two rotors in a stacked configuration are activated by thumb and finger paddles. That means that the F-attachment loop is stacked onto the Bb/C loop. The thumb paddle operates the F-attachment, which only works on the Bb side of the horn. The finger paddle activates the C ascending rotor. The F-attachment crook is very long, offering the possibility of shorter crooks to tune the rotor to different keys. It could function like a trill valve on an alto trombone.

Speaking of which...this reminds us a little of an alto trombone, but in C instead of Eb. It has that compact tone and an electricity that could be useful when a small instrument is needed, but an alto trombone is too unfriendly.

The entire instrument is clear lacquered except for the main tuning crook, which is left unlacquered. We have polished it since the photos were taken. Robb Stewart modified the finger paddle linkage to shorten the throw to an acceptable amount.



What is the Deal with This?


Here we offer the complete writings of Günter Frost's website, painstakingly translated from the original German.

The tradition of teaching attacked for lack of suitable child instruments mostly on weitmensurierte quart trombones back , which is also bad quality were often enough. The initial lessons on the alto trombone took a long time little champion . The invented in 1981 by Günter Frost and registered with the Patent Office BC- trombone could be tested in the classroom in the same year with a test model of Rainer Kurz, Berlin . The utility of this idea was indeed detected but speech and mood could not convince absolute and the students had to take one of the usual "giants" in use; soon won at the Ten Years' King Football on the trombone.

An educator must demand very good instruments for beginners. The instrument should be designed so that it meets high artistic standards and soloists and composers are tempted to take advantage of the new technological possibilities . In no way should be departing from the basic model tenor trombone , as already described in Praetorius ' Syntagma Musicum as " mean, right trombone " .
Steeped in tradition and add something !


A toy instrument can not do justice to the task . It turned out that they never built scale in all experiments of various seasoned instrument builder always remained poor and always the same deficiencies exhibited . Empirical experiments have brought little success, but again and again resignation. Since when Tobias Trommer , a former student of music by Günter Frost, for his " Theoretical work on the diploma " in the academic year 1994/95 the theme "Investigation of the acoustic properties of the B / C trumpet, and their applications in the education of young trombonists ". In this work the pedagogical usefulness has been demonstrated.

The deficiencies of the scale were measured in a series already comprehensive multiple brands at the Physikalisch -Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB) Braunschweig , range Musical Acoustics by Dipl . Ing. Dr. Klaus Wogram analyzed and documented first suggest corrections for each model. Thus, the cost issue came to the fore .


Several large manufacturers showed their lack of interest in the project. High costs and doubts about future market success were the arguments. There was Günter Frost, now professionally incompetent musicians and instead honorary teacher at music schools , and certainly overwhelmed. But there were now more than a dozen BC trombones in teaching and practice in use , their deficiencies had been reduced to empirical ways. Finally, Günter Frost took in spring 2001 again start to lift the trumpets in a high quality level . The PTB in Braunschweig developed new correction suggestions and the instrument builder Joachim Pfretzschner and Helmut Voigt , Mark Neukirchen, this translated into practice . So finally able to BC trombones excellent quality in six different sizes to be completed.


Bb/C Function



The Ganztonventil aims at reducing to C. The B - tenor trombone has thereby also eight train positions of a C- tenor trombone.

bc-positionen.gif

The natural harmonic rows B to F Tenor Trombone in positions one through six are once again on the positions three to eight blowable in the C scale .
New features are the natural harmonic rows on Large -C and double -H in positions one and two of the C scale . The traditional B - trombone is thus fully preserved and also contains the twin sister in C. So can now be blown on each tone in the B- scale trill . Glissandi are possible over a fifth interval now .

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Bb/C/F Tenorbassposaune

If the BC - trombone a quart - valve double their volume of Des upwards will be added seamlessly chromatic.

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The Inconvenient Great -C on the sixth train the F- trombone with his " long " settling in is conveniently located on the C trumpet in the first course and responds very easily. With double H on the high second train of the C - trumpet the gap between Des and B is closed in an ideal way . In accordance with further scale ( size 5) , this trumpet is used as a bass trombone .


Description of the Model 2


Orchestra trombone to the high altitudes and youth trombone lessons and practice trombone choirs , music clubs, jazz bands , brass bands and Salon .
Sound German tradition , lean and meaty

Specifications

B-C-F Tenorbaßposaune , Model: W 2-F
Valves: 1-shortening secondary valve , 1 quart valve
Silent Minibal mechanics , 2 keys
Bore: 12.4-12.7 mm, strongly tapered
Bell: 200 mm
Gold lacquered brass


Reviews of the Frost Trombone from bassposaunen.de

Günter Frost is a smart man, he calls this bass trombone B / C tenor - bass trombone. The instruments are manufactured to their specifications well in Mark Neukirchen and have a tone of many other problems in the shade . Zugtechinik I have time at the Frankfurt Messe not quite get it , but sound and workmanship are unparalleled and the price was quite ok.
-Kurt Klinspor

I have already tried the instrument from Günter frost. It is a trumpet in C that can be toned down by a valve on B . A great advantage of this is the fact that the C comes to lie as already pedal tone to the first position. This saves some long way , especially since the train is overall a bit shorter. Unfortunately, the trombone is very tight mensuriert , at best, width IV . As a result, some things are missing in the sound but in mass and volume . The handling of the trombone is not outstanding, the weight distribution is a bit inconvenient. Artisan is the trumpets of Günter Frost well done. That was at least three or four years ago that.
-Daniel S. Heim

[Neo Bri]

Sure is purdy.

[whitbey]

C makes a lot of sense. My Bass is a Bb/F/C.
Seems like a better valve and wrap would help. And maybe tuning in the slide since the back half is a little short for the taper.
I would love to play one of these!

[blast]

The concept is very interesting... C and B as pedal notes... very free blowing. Getting a decent bell taper would be the problem. I remember warming up every day at the Frankfurt Musikmesse on a Voigt bass... very pretty and very well made, but with a couple of notes that simply didn't work. Normal for traditional German instruments. As a side note, it was a Voigt contra that Kanstul copied.

Chris

[peteedwards]

I've built a version of this horn which addresses many of these issues- full discussion here:
http://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082