Rath R10 vs Lawler

[Dbone]

How does the tone, play and build quality of Rath R10 compare to Lawler trombones?

[TheSheriff]

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Build quality of both is excellent. As to the other stuff, well, you gotta play 'em!

I have way more time on a Lawler trombone than I do a Rath trombone. I've only play tested several Rath's, never owned one. I find a Lawler to be very rich and character filled with a touch of rawness to the sound which is what I love about them. To me, a Rath is more legit sounding.

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[FeelMyRath]

The R10 is fully modular, you can make it play and sound how you want it to, depending on your setup. There is no such thing as The R10, there are too many permeatations to make generalisations. I'm guessing the same can be said about Lawlers, but we don't have them on this side of the pond.

[TheSheriff]

The R10 is fully modular, you can make it play and sound how you want it to, depending on your setup. There is no such thing as The R10, there are too many permeatations to make generalisations. I'm guessing the same can be said about Lawlers, but we don't have them on this side of the pond.

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A Lawler is available in a variety of materials and bore sizes but they will all have that raw, hip, funkiness to their sound that I love, and so do many other folks. I have never played or heard a Rath that has those qualities. A Lawler has a very unique signature to its sound.

A Lawler can be had anywhere in the world. All you have to do is order one.

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[mrdeacon]

I always describe my R1 as a super charged Bach 16. They share a number of design similarities with Bach.

[TheSheriff]

I always describe my R1 as a super charged Bach 16. They share a number of design similarities with Bach.

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Good description.

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[AndyBaker]

I'm in the enviable position of having both, and I've spent a lot of time playing both. Actually, I have owned 4 Raths, and 4 Lawlers (currently have 2 of each) - They are all wonderful trombones!

Both are beautifully made, and fully customizable so it is going to come down to personal preference - I don't think anyone could say that one is better than the other.

As for sound? They are quite different. The Lawler definitely has a unique sound - it's very personal and has a 'fuzz' or something to it. A beautiful jazz sound.
The Rath is somehow more 'pure' and compact.

Like I said, they're both beautiful - Buy one of each!

(Or if you're in Chicago, you can come and try mine)

[mrdeacon]

Would you guys the Lawler as Conn 6Hish?

[AndyBaker]

Would you guys the Lawler as Conn 6Hish?

Not really - I mean, more similar to a Conn than a Bach perhaps. But it's its own thing.

[LIBrassCo]

I have a customer with both, I will ask his opinion. I will also add he brought his Lawler to me for a slide alignment, and I was very impressed with the horn. Besides being an excellent value for the money, he's doing some interesting stuff on those horns, that gives them a very unique sound. I would highly recommend them.

[Mikebmiller]

I love my Lawler, but have never played an R10. But I have an R3/F and it is great. So you can't really go wrong.

[Dbone]

For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.

[Mikebmiller]

I was looking for a lead horn for big band. I ended up with red brass bell, 7 1/2" red brass flare, and nickel silver slide. I have bought an 8" red brass flare since then, but not played on it much.

[AndyBaker]

For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.

.500/.508 bras slide with nickel bottom bow. 25 gauge (heavy) bell stem (yellow) and a nickel neck pipe.

Bell flares:
22 gage red-brass 7.5", no bead - Killing lead set-up
25 gage yellow 8 with traditional bead - Plays much bigger, like a .525 horn.

[DaveAshley]

I picked my components at Roy's shop almost 3 years ago. Mine is a .025 yellow stem with all-nickel .500 slide. I have four flares - 8 inch .022 yellow, 8 inch .025 bronze, 7 3/4 .022 red, and 7 1/2 inch silver plated .022 yellow. I mostly use the bronze flare. It's simply incredible. I use a Kanstul W6 leadpipe. In fact, I may have it soldered in soon. It's easily the best match for me.
Yes, the setup is heavy, but it doesn't PLAY heavy!
I stopped playing the horn for about a year because I was having some problems with pain in my hands. I switched my grip a little and came back to it a few months ago. I'm glad I did! It's a super-refined horn with the deepest, richest, dare I say "manliest" sound I've ever gotten from a trombone. Seriously!! I can still play pretty and sweet on it, though.

I've got to try the other two models some time. Maybe I'll visit the shop again...

[Dbone]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your comments on the Lawler trombone. I particularly like the descriptive words: warm, rich, and “manliest”.

This seems to match the same sentiments of the Sheriff and Andy Baker. The Lawler must really have a unique sound, which is very appealing.

For those with experience with the Lawler, does the bell stem alloy make much of a difference in the sound? I am particularly interest in the red brass vs the yellow brass. It seems like the bell flare has a greater impact on the color of the sound, but I am curious about the experiences from the owners.

Thanks,

[DaveAshley]

When I visited Roy's shop, I brought along my Earl Williams 6. I aimed to choose components to achieve a sound as close as possible to that of the Williams. I don't remember what differences I noticed in the red & yellow stems, but I do remember that Roy and I flat-out agreed that the yellow suited me better. That makes sense, since the Williams has an all-yellow bell section.Now, I can hardly say that my Lawler sounds like my Williams. Both instruments are their own thing! I might venture to say that the nickel or brass outer slide has more impact than the stem! I guess it all depends on the individual player.
If you're within a reasonable/affordable travel distance from Shelbyville, Tennessee, the best thing to do is visit the shop!

[TheSheriff]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your comments on the Lawler trombone. I particularly like the descriptive words: warm, rich, and “manliest”.

This seems to match the same sentiments of the Sheriff and Andy Baker. The Lawler must really have a unique sound, which is very appealing.

For those with experience with the Lawler, does the bell stem alloy make much of a difference in the sound? I am particularly interest in the red brass vs the yellow brass. It seems like the bell flare has a greater impact on the color of the sound, but I am curious about the experiences from the owners.

Thanks,

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The stem material definitely makes a difference in the sound as does everything else. I prefer the sound I get from my red stems but I also like the sound of Andy Baker's yellow stem. Ultimately, we end up sounding like we always do.

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[MalecHeermans]

For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.

I really dug the idea of going all brass and had been gravitating toward more brass for a long time. Since Roy is also really into it that's what I went for:

.500 all yellow brass slide
22 gauge yellow brass stem
22 gauge 7.75" yellow brass flare with traditional bead

He also sent a .508 slide for me to try (which was fantastic, I would have kept it if I had the extra dough) and a 20 gauge 8" yellow brass flare which I didn't care for. I was looking for something with splash, which this had, but it also had a tinny trash can lid kind of thing that I didn't care for.

I'm using mine quite often now after finally getting it sorted and breaking it in a bit. The solo on this is actually with the Lawler, though I had my Shires for the video shoot:

[MalecHeermans]

And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

[TheSheriff]

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

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Perfect description of a Lawler, Malec.

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[Trevorspaulding376]

Sheriff I see you have a model 1 and model 3 which do you prefer ? What differences do you notice in the 2 in terms of response and tone

[TheSheriff]

Sheriff I see you have a model 1 and model 3 which do you prefer ? What differences do you notice in the 2 in terms of response and tone

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Go over to the Lawler thread and see my response from April, 30th.

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[Dbone]

Malec,

Which did you prefer in your tryout at Dillons? The Shires or the Lawler? The sound seemed more clear with the Shires, but more rich and interesting with the Lawler - to me anyway.

Thanks

[MalecHeermans]

Malec,

Which did you prefer in your tryout at Dillons? The Shires or the Lawler? The sound seemed more clear with the Shires, but more rich and interesting with the Lawler - to me anyway.

Thanks

Well I bought the Lawler

That said the Shires is a very fine instrument and compared favorably to the Lawler, it just was less of what I was looking for in this particular application.

In general I think you're description of the two sounds is apt.

I will also say that I ended up with a Shires #2 leadpipe in the Lawler, which does bring it a bit more toward the sound of the Shires horn. I was playing a Lawler pipe in the comparison video.

[MahlerMusic]

And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

Thanks for the video. The two do sound very different. I listened with good headphones and I did not look at the video and the difference is night and day.

Like you mention the other part of this is leadpipe (and mouthpiece) after playing a bunch of horns a few years ago I picked one, then ended up trying the other 2 leadpipes that it came with it. I do not remember which one I picked but then the mouthpiece that came with the horn ended up working way better then the one that I was using to test all the trombones. I'm very happy with what I picked but who knows what the other trombones would be like with different pipes and mouthpiece. Plus Playing with others can change how you feel about the horn.

We really are lucky today because back in the day you would just have to play a King or Conn.

[TheSheriff]

And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

We really are lucky today because back in the day you would just have to play a King or Conn.

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Or a Bach or a Martin or a Williams or a.....

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[MahlerMusic]

LOL... who plays a Bach for Jazz just kidding

[salsabone]

Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?

[TheSheriff]

Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?

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I don't know if Roy will be there. I could ask him, but knowing him like I do I get the feeling he's not big on doing shows. Word of mouth and the internet keeps him busy fulfilling orders. But I'll ask him.

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[TheSheriff]

Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?

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Roy tells me that he will not be there but Schmitt music will be, and they'll have some Lawler trombones on display.

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[salsabone]

That will have to do. I was intending to bring a pristine 1947 Martin committee for him to see, considering it was what as I understand was the beginning basis for his current designs!! OH Well. By the way this trombone is a Killer horn.
Kevin

[TheSheriff]

That will have to do. I was intending to bring a pristine 1947 Martin committee for him to see, considering it was what as I understand was the beginning basis for his current designs!! OH Well. By the way this trombone is a Killer horn.
Kevin

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Roy has a 40's Committee too as well as one that is a .500 bore. I've had several of them over the years and always liked them. His horns play like a supercharged Committee.

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