Shires Q Series Euphonium

[matto]

Shires has announced a Q Series Euphonium to be displayed at ITEC.

From the FB post:

Time to break the internet ... announcing the arrival of the S.E. Shires Q Series Euphonium! Prototypes debuting at this year’s ITEC (International Tuba Euphonium Conference)!!! #theregoestheneighborhood #iplayshires #teamshires #seshires #shireseuphonium #shiresqseries #euphonium #brassband #orchestra #windensemble #militarymusic #handmade #custombrassinstruments #euphoniumplayer

[Bach5G]

There’s a real Eastman-ish feel to this.

[Schlitz]

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[Burgerbob]

"The world needs more options for compensating euphoniums."

-Nobody

[Finetales]

"The world needs more options for compensating euphoniums."

-Nobody

I still miss the York Eminence euphs...

[bbocaner]

It is not a rebadged eastman at all. They may share some components in the valve cluster, but my understanding is it's a completely different design.

Finetales - ugh... my experiences were that the York instruments were not well designed or well made.

[Finetales]

Finetales - ugh... my experiences were that the York instruments were not well designed or well made.

I just remember trying one at ITEC years ago and liking it better than everything except the Willsons. Maybe it was a fluke!

[brassmedic]

The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.

[Schlitz]

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[Schlitz]

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[Specialk3700]

The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.

Shires q series parts and Eastman parts are very easy to come by. So are the parts for low end Chinese resellers like Wessex and Mack brass.

[mrdeacon]

Looks like a rebadged Eastman.

I'm sure it's not a completely rebadged Eastman but I think it's logical to say that not all the parts are made by Shires. At least on this first one. Maybe Shires will tool up if they already haven't?

I have no idea who actually designed the horn. If it was in house by Shires or by Eastman.

[brassmedic]

The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.

Shires q series parts and Eastman parts are very easy to come by. So are the parts for low end Chinese resellers like Wessex and Mack brass.

That's my point, though. If the valves are poorly machined, you can't fix it just with "parts".

[LIBrassCo]

The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.

This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.



The fair statement to make is, i hope Eastman doesnt cheap out, and is paying for high accuracy on anything machined.

[BGuttman]

The problem with Chinese-made horns is that the machining doesn't seem to be as accurate, and with something as finicky as compensating valves, it could be a problem. I've run into this a number of times: "Hey, I saved a bunch of money buying this Chinese instrument and it plays great!".... "Hmmmm...the valves aren't working right - can you fix it?" Nope.

This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.



The fair statement to make is, i hope Eastman doesnt cheap out, and is paying for high accuracy on anything machined.

Dealing with Chinese manufacturers is a funny game. I worked for a company where we'd pre-order parts from China for prototype runs and the parts were perfect. Then we'd place the final order and the parts were terrible. Some factories operate on the "parts is parts" mode and do no QC so it becomes incumbent on the buyer to make sure the parts are useful.

Note that increasing tolerance specs often changes price. There is a very big difference in how to make parts +/- 0.01mm vs. 0.001 mm vs. 0.0001 mm. Often the difference can be tenfold for each increase in spec.

[LIBrassCo]

This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts. Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway. Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.



The fair statement to make is, i hope Eastman doesnt cheap out, and is paying for high accuracy on anything machined.

Dealing with Chinese manufacturers is a funny game. I worked for a company where we'd pre-order parts from China for prototype runs and the parts were perfect. Then we'd place the final order and the parts were terrible. Some factories operate on the "parts is parts" mode and do no QC so it becomes incumbent on the buyer to make sure the parts are useful.

Note that increasing tolerance specs often changes price. There is a very big difference in how to make parts +/- 0.01mm vs. 0.001 mm vs. 0.0001 mm. Often the difference can be tenfold for each increase in spec.

Absolutely! Anytime I order I check each part to verify regardless. And yes when you start getting to higher accuracy/resolution, price can go up a lot for sure, hence saying i hope they didnt cheap out!

[SwissTbone]

Shires is known as a premium brand with high quality products. Also with the Q series.

It would be really stupid to "cheap out" on parts and destroying that image.

[Trevorspaulding376]

The q series trombone parts are all made in the shires factory by shires , then assembled over seas and then checked back out at shires is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different

[Bach5G]

The q series trombone parts are all made in the Eastman’s shires factory by shires (Eastman) , then assembled over seas (by Eastman) and then checked back out at shires (Eastman) is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different

Fixed that for you.

[brassmedic]

The q series trombone parts are all made in the shires factory by shires , then assembled over seas and then checked back out at shires is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different

If they do that it could be good. But if the valves are made at the chinese factory, it could be a problem.

[mrdeacon]

The q series trombone parts are all made in the Eastman’s shires factory by shires (Eastman) , then assembled over seas (by Eastman) and then checked back out at shires (Eastman) is my understanding so the parts are still of the highest quality, no reason to believe the euphoniums would be any different

Fixed that for you.

Not sure where you got your info from... but that's wrong. The post Trevorspaulding made is correct...

The Q series bones are USA Shires made parts but assembled in China then shipped back to the states to be quality controlled. Quality, of course, does seem to be a little higher on the fully made USA custom horns..

Sure Shires is owned by Eastman but the craftsmen in the states are the same and the quality is just as good as before the takeover.

[brassmedic]

This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts.

It's not an assumption; it is an observation. Huge difference.

Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway.

LOL. No, you don't get well made parts just because you wrote a number on a piece of paper.

Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.

Ideals and actual practice are quite different. But I will give Shires the benefit of the doubt here because they have always built high-quality instruments. If Shires is making the parts and checking the quality of the overseas construction, then it could be good.

[Bach5G]

Sure Shires is owned by Eastman ...

That’s what I’m saying.

<Edit: Fixed Quote - B.Guttman>

[LIBrassCo]

This assumption about chinese made goods drives me nuts.

It's not an assumption; it is an observation. Huge difference.

Truth be told, anythong made overseas has the same ability to be made poorly or excellent, it solely depends on who places the order, and what the drawings say. If the drawings say + or -- .005" then you will get that as your tolerance (fyi for people who dont machine, this is not precision). If they say .0005", well now we are starting to get to precision parts. If it says .00005", this is high accuracy, for instruments anyway.

LOL. No, you don't get well made parts just because you wrote a number on a piece of paper.

Bottom line, you get what you ask/pay for. They will make samples well before an order is fulfilled, where all of this can be verified, and even once production starts, any parts that don't meet the drawings ideally go back.

Ideals and actual practice are quite different. But I will give Shires the benefit of the doubt here because they have always built high-quality instruments. If Shires is making the parts and checking the quality of the overseas construction, then it could be good.

Do you get parts from China?

Any good shop there will keep to a drawing, no issue. I have to imagine Eastman doesn't have an issue with any of this.

[Bach5G]

I understand what Eastman brought to the table was deep enough pockets to solve SES’ debts (mainly gov’t debt) woes and cash flow problems. Probably some marketing and distribution too.

[Matt K]

One can say Steve Shires (Eastman) but that doesn't change the fact that Steve himself is still spinning the bells. Who "owns" Steve or the trademark is sort of immaterial. One could say the same thing by saying: "Edwards (Getzen) trombones are assembled in the Edwards (Getzen) factory... etc. etc.". If who is spinning the bell is immaterial to you and the important part is that Americans also assemble it, so be it... but the former parenthetical is a distinction solely on paper.

And where the rubber meets the road, a lot of techs seem to have experience primarily with the bottom of the barrel eBay variety horns which seem to vary quite largely in their quality. It's obvious that some of the horns are marginally playable at best just as it is obvious that some horns are quite playable, evidenced by the early popular adoption in even professional settings of the alto trombones distributed by Horn Guys as of a few years ago before the lower price point horns had penetrated the market. So if your experience is primarily the former, it is going to be understandably difficult to think of them as anything but inferior.

[Specialk3700]

Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.

[Schlitz]

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[LIBrassCo]

Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.

Their tubas are certainly making waves. Don Sawday has been designing their tubas, and is currently working on a new one in F.

[bbocaner]

Barry, is this the rumored Hiram Diaz design input one? Medium shank?

Right

[brassmedic]

It's obvious that some of the horns are marginally playable at best just as it is obvious that some horns are quite playable, evidenced by the early popular adoption in even professional settings of the alto trombones distributed by Horn Guys as of a few years ago before the lower price point horns had penetrated the market. So if your experience is primarily the former, it is going to be understandably difficult to think of them as anything but inferior.

I worked on a lot of the Jinbao altos for Horn Guys. They were not playable from the factory. The reason those were priced higher was because we completely replaced the leadpipes and did a major overhaul on each instrument. Some had to be sent back because they just weren't viable instruments at all. Most if not all of the ones kept had either poorly drawn inner slide tubes, leaky solder joints, slides tubes wildly out of alignment or not straight, etc. They're not bad instruments once they are fixed up, but definitely not usable on a professional level the way they arrived.

[Matt K]

It's obvious that some of the horns are marginally playable at best just as it is obvious that some horns are quite playable, evidenced by the early popular adoption in even professional settings of the alto trombones distributed by Horn Guys as of a few years ago before the lower price point horns had penetrated the market. So if your experience is primarily the former, it is going to be understandably difficult to think of them as anything but inferior.

I worked on a lot of the Jinbao altos for Horn Guys. They were not playable from the factory. The reason those were priced higher was because we completely replaced the leadpipes and did a major overhaul on each instrument. Some had to be sent back because they just weren't viable instruments at all. Most if not all of the ones kept had either poorly drawn inner slide tubes, leaky solder joints, slides tubes wildly out of alignment or not straight, etc. They're not bad instruments once they are fixed up, but definitely not usable on a professional level the way they arrived.

Right! So it goes, particularly with the horns without rotors as you mentioned. And as someone who has owned two of those altos it was still quite worth it given my relative levels of ability to play the alto vs. my ability to pay for one. I actually bought one of your "B" stock ones that had a relatively scratchy slide but I was able to replace the inners/outeres and end up with a good alto, the tech who did the work appreciated the work... win/win situation. You're probably right about the euph though, that would not be nearly as easy to replace as I did by... if I'm recalling... chopping up a 354 slide. I was <$1k... I think sub $500 actually on that whole project.

But in either case it is a moot point if it's anything like the other Q series as '100%' of the parts come from Boston and are merely assembled in one of the Eastman factories. For what it's worth, the craftsmanship coming out of the Eastman factory seems to be a level above that coming out of the JinBao factory... although truth be told I don't even know if they are independent factories. Could just be different people. But all of the "Q" series instruments I've tried have played great. Nothing at all like the "B" stock JinBao alto I owned before the slide work.

[Mikebmiller]

Old thread but I saw these Shires euphs at ITF this summer. They look like super nice horns. They have 2 models, although I can't really tell you what the difference was. But they told me that the pricing is going to be in the $6K range, which puts them almost up there with the German made instruments and well above something like the Packer 374, which is a really nice instrument for around $4K. Maybe that will change by the time they actually list them on the web site.

The price difference between German made and Chinese made euphs is enough to convince all but the most dedicated (and well heeled) players to go with something like the Mack Brass or Wessex offerings. You can buy 6 of those for what a new Willson costs and most listeners won't know any difference.

[tbonesullivan]

I would guess these may be intended to compete with the John Packer Euphoniums made in cooperation with Sterling. Eastman is a worldwide company, so they may be looking for something a bit more upmarket to compete in the British/European market. There also are a fair number of euphonium players in the U.S., and definitely a demand for mid level compensating euphoniums.

Eastman is already making some good tubas, from what I have heard from my tuba playing friends. The thing to see is whether the valves and plating holds up over time.

[JohnL]

I remember having a conversation with a local music store owner a few years ago when Eastman was first starting to make inroads into the US market. According to him, Eastman was specifically targeting a price point higher than the other China-based companies because they wanted to separate themselves from them.

[Mv2541]

But they told me that the pricing is going to be in the $6K range, which puts them almost up there with the German made instruments and well above something like the Packer 374, which is a really nice instrument for around $4K.

$6k is quite a high price. Unless it is a game changer I doubt many people would buy one over an established European horn. If it was in the $3-4k range I would bet they would sell like nobody's buisness since it seems there aren't a lot of new options at that price range.

[Neo Bri]

Time to break the internet!

[Mikebmiller]

Time to break the internet!

The Internet seems to have survived the announcement of the Shires euphonium.

At $6K, the Shires offering is 75% of the cost of an Adams, which is generally considered to be the best euph in the world.

I talked to a guy at Wessex yesterday and they are shipping their new EP600, which is their new high-end model. They are going for $2,950. He said they already sold out the first batch and were expecting the next batch in February. That might be a nice comprise between the cheapo Chinese horns and the budget busting German ones.

[bbocaner]

At $6K, the Shires offering is 75% of the cost of an Adams, which is generally considered to be the best euph in the world.

I own an Adams E3 euphonium and like it very much, but I think it's a stretch to say it's "generally considered" the best. There are lots of different opinions. Brandon Jones in the US Air Force band had several custom Adams euphoniums made and is now playing the Shires. They have different flavors for sure, and I think he liked the way the timbre of the Shires fit into the band.

[Mikebmiller]

OK. I am not an expert on all things euphonia. I had just read a of of posts on dwerden.com praising the Adams.

[bbocaner]

I could see how one could get that impression at dwerden.com

[Mikebmiller]

If someone will slide me 8 grand, I will be glad to buy one and do a full review.

[tbonesullivan]

A Yamaha YEP-642 II Neo goes for $6300-6500. Probably the best value in "professional" compensating euphoniums out there. It would take quite a bit more than just the $500 cheaper price to convince me to go with a Q series if I was in the market. Yamaha is a global company that still makes many parts for horns decades out of production. I doubt you'll get that kind of coverage from the Shire Q Series.

That said, are ALL of the parts of the Q-series trombones made in the USA, then Shipped to China for Assembly, and then shipped back? I don't see how they'd really be able to keep the costs down if it was done that way, as the transport and customs would not be small. Or are the USA made parts such as slide tubes not necessary made by Shires?

[timbone]

Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.

Yes this is true- They are making huge gains because you can have artists as long as you give things away.

[Matt K]

Having experience with Eastman trombones I have no worries about quality control. They have been some of my favorite trombones I have tried. They are also making huge gains in the tuba world it seems everyone is becoming an Eastman artist.

Yes this is true- They are making huge gains because you can have artists as long as you give things away.

My understanding of the situation is that in the specific case of Shires, you do not get instruments for free, you get a discounted instrument. I know that is also the arrangement for at least some Yamaha artists too. And presumably these artists had instruments before becoming artists too ...is the idea that they would purchase an inferior instrument to what they were on before to save a few hundred dollars? I mean I've never been approached by any company to be an artist (but I'm available if anyone is out there in a marketing department! ) so all of my knowledge is secondhand but I could be way off base but I think the premise here is not totally correct.