Bass Trombone - Jazz vs Symphonic

[MahlerMusic]

I don't know if this has been covered before but I have always known King Basses to be more for Jazz and Bach Basses to be more for Large Orchestra's. When looking at older horns you can see lots of comments as to what the horn is meant for. When I look at new horns it seems to me that the only focus is the symphonic side of things. My question is what makes a bass trombone a Jazz Bass? and how would you build one out with custom options?

Jazz and Symphonic Tenors are so different... why not the Bass.

[hyperbolica]

People here fight about this a lot. But sure, let's kick the hornet nest, it's been a couple of days.

To me, jazz and pop styles require more bite, harder articulations, a brighter sound, more edge, more front end on the note (generally smaller equipment). Orchestral is usually thought of as a bigger darker sound, more sustain, (generally larger equipment).

You can find examples of big heavy bones in pop styles and lighter brighter basses in orchestral, which is where the arguments come in, and of course those who insist the equipment doesn't matter, it's how you stroke the brass...

The reality is that most players have one horn, not a stable with endless variation to choose from, so you might have to play Ellington on a 578 dual Thayer Edwards, or play Mahler on a Duo Gravis. Good playing is good playing, and you can probably make anything sound believable, but stereotypical dixieland uses a sousaphone and a small bore bone. Mozart might most accurately be played on a G bass, John Williams sounds best on the biggest heaviest Eddie you can find.

Don't worry too much about what is academically correct, unless you're a dedicated music historian. Just play your Olds Super or '67 Director or Jinbao 42b copy at your best, and practice every day to get better and more consistent. The audience can rarely hear the difference between a good player on one horn or another, but they can tell the difference between a good player and a bad player immediately.

[Bach5G]

“My question is what makes a bass trombone a Jazz Bass?”

The player.

[pedrombon]

“My question is what makes a bass trombone a Jazz Bass?”

The player.

Also (not indispensable) a smaller leadpipe, bore, tuning slide, bell weight/throat/diameter

[Burgerbob]

“My question is what makes a bass trombone a Jazz Bass?”

The player.

Also (not indispensable) a smaller leadpipe, bore, tuning slide, bell weight/throat/ diameter?

One of the best jazz bass trombonists I play with regularly uses an Edwards with heavy yellow bell and dual bore slide. He sounds the part and has a great time doing it.

Sound concept will trump equipment nearly every time.

[pedrombon]

Also (not indispensable) a smaller leadpipe, bore, tuning slide, bell weight/throat/ diameter?

One of the best jazz bass trombonists I play with regularly uses an Edwards with heavy yellow bell and dual bore slide. He sounds the part and has a great time doing it.

Sound concept will trump equipment nearly every time.

That's why I say that a "light" horn is not indispensable.

[bassclef]

Sound concept will trump equipment nearly every time.

Yep.

I do believe that one can select equipment that is predisposed to allow a person to bring their sound concept to life with minimal effort.

But here again, that equipment choice depends totally on the player and his/her approach to sound production. For example, this person with whom Aidan works plays equipment which on paper sounds like an orchestral weapon of mass destruction and supreme tonal darkness and width. Personally, I'd find that way too much work (if it was even possible) to make the bright/snappy/compact/colorful/etc sound which I go for in a big band setting but it sounds like it works awfully well for him.

Develop a sound concept thorough listening and study of recordings, then select equipment that doesn't put up much of a fight when you try to produce a sound like what's in your head, whatever that equipment happens to be for YOU.

[Burgerbob]

Yup. I'm not saying a 62H is a bad choice, more that almost anything will work.

[sf105]

If you want to get that picky, it also depends on what era. The Kenton era stuff was done on single-valve Conns, but that would be a lot of work for more contemporary material. And now Maria Schneider writes the occasional contra double.

[bigbandbone]

So, for covering the 4th/bass book in a big band that does 85% swing era stuff and 15% newer material, what non-custom bass bones would you guys suggest. I ask because I'm looking!

[BGuttman]

So, for covering the 4th/bass book in a big band that does 85% swing era stuff and 15% newer material, what non-custom bass bones would you guys suggest. I ask because I'm looking!

Anything you like. Really. Whatever fits the pocketbook, feels comfortable to hold, and sounds good. If used, it has to be in reasonably good condition.

You need at least a single valve; a double makes life easier. Independent or dependent? You'll get used to what you get. I'd recommend you get something with split triggers if a double (thumb for F, one finger for the 2nd valve). Flat E, Eb, D, C for the combination? Older horns may be flat E. D is the more popular but there are adherents for Eb. C is a specialty.

Most Swing Era bands used 4 straight tenors. Later Swing Era used a relatively small bass like a King 5B or Reynolds Stereophonic. Newer music looks for a true double.

In case you think I'm pulling your leg, I use a King 7B for symphony orchestra and jazz band. It works either way. Nobody's sent me home for having the "wrong instrument".

[bigbandbone]

Is the Holton TR183 worth considering? I find my selection/consideration choices are being colored by my impressions of brands based on my 44 year repair career. I never liked Holton design or construction, but if they play great I don't want to dismiss them.

[GeeSamYouWell]

Is the Holton TR183 worth considering? I find my selection/consideration choices are being colored by my impressions of brands based on my 44 year repair career. I never liked Holton design or construction, but if they play great I don't want to dismiss them.

I use mine primarily with big bands because it's snappy and sounds like a trombone, not a slide tuba, with my Van Haney MP. I use a Shires 1.25 or a Klier with orchestras to get it a bit "heavier," but I think more practice (something I struggle with regarding my doubles as a tenor player) is an even better option for attaining this!

[flotrb]

Holton 169 + Bach Mt. Vernon 1½G : Kleinhammer, Ray Premru (2G), Dave Taylor , Chris Stern.

Play everything...no exceptions!

Bore: .562/.583"
Bell: 9½" rose brass
Nickel silver trim
Standard wrap in F
Nickel silver Micro-Taper leader pipe

[brtnats]

I think this is really interesting, because it cuts right to the heart of the problem (and opportunities) of the bass trombonist: This instrument is a utility position that fills multiple roles with a single player.

A modern bass trombone has to reasonably be able to play parts written for: Bb tenor trombone, Bb bass trombone, F bass trombone, Eb bass trombone, G bass trombone, BBb contrabass trombone, and possibly even the F contrabass. In an orchestra it provides conical bottom to the brass section, directional sound and articulation to the tuba, direction for the cello and string bass, reinforces the bass singers in a choir, and every other crazy thing a composer demands.

In a jazz band it’s the bottom of the trombone section, and either adds bite OR warmth to the bari sax, depending on the context. Or it’s playing like another tenor in a trombone tutti.

One instrument, hundreds of roles. I think using that mentality, the jazz v. symphonic question gets a lot easier; There isn’t really a difference, because the bass trombone is already being called to fill multiple roles for multiple instruments anyway.

[ExZacLee]

Think about the venue... about the approach... about the sound.

Someone who does it great can do it on any piece of equipment you put in their hand, of course, but certain equipment choices make what you need better - and these choices have tradeoffs.

A big broad, somewhat diffuse sound has the tradeoff of responding a little more slowly. A horn favoring a more nimble, lithe sound with stabbing attacks is not going to have the same depth of sound as the previous, may not blend as proficiently, but will keep up with the faster pace and serve as a truly separate voice when needed.

In an orchestra, the bass trombone has to lend weight to the ensemble while at the same time facilitate a blend with the trombones, French horns and tuba (and occasionally cello and bass.) Sonority and an ability to produce a lot of rich overtones to support this behemoth are paramount. The feet are planted to support the weight of the ensemble.

In a big band, the bass trombone is treated almost as a solo instrument, and has to be able to keep step with the Bari sax and the upright (played differently than it's orchestral counterpart) while also being able to hang on in an ensemble that moves quite a bit more than you generally find in an orchestra. The attacks in this ensemble are generally more percussive in nature, have quite a bit more movement on average. The feet are moving to keep up with this ensemble.

The venue, type of material you're playing and its function all play into this. In the most general terms, the orchestral bass trombone is a super heavy weight and the big band bass trombone is more of a middleweight-light heavyweight. You kind of see this in the function of the tuba in large jazz ensembles vs. orchestras as well. Also a concern is the amount of playing you're doing... in a big band you are playing all of the time and your equipment wants to be lighter and more responsive to reflect this, while in the orchestra what you lack in number of notes played you more than make up for in the weight. A lot of punches versus fewer with more power.

As far as what you do, you of course you go with what works. In general, something that blends well will do best in the larger orchestral settings while something that has its own distinct voice and quicker attacks will do better in big band writing. Again, these are generalizations. At the highest levels you'll find people specialize their equipment depending on the repertoire they're playing; Wagner and Mozart rarely call for the same horn, the same with Basie and Evans or Ellington (valve bass in C!?) and Schneider.

But then again, if you focus on making what you have sound good, you'll be alright. Personally, I don't write for the horn as much as the player.