Slide width for small bore bones

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:45 pm

I find narrow slides kind of annoying, even on small bore horns. My 79h has a wide slide, and I like that. I went to the length of putting a wide crook on a 10h slide, loved that arrangement and for some reason lost my mind and sold it.

I'm just wondering what are the 508/500 bore horns with wider slides? Are Bachs wider than Conns? What about the 100h?

Redthunder · Post by **Redthunder** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:26 pm

Let me know when you find the answer... I also can't deal with narrow slides... I'd love a small bore with a wide slide.

Where did you get the wide crook for your 10H?

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:13 pm

I'm actually curious myself, I don't have much experience with the smaller horns. Would love to put a wider, 508ish crook in nickel on my 356.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:19 pm

Now that's a dimension that should be readily available from both the manufacturer as well as the dealer. Most of the information available is more marketing fluff than actual objective data. Sorry to interject....

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:31 pm

I got the "wide glide* crook from DJ. It was meant for a 509, maybe the width of a 36b slide. It did change the sound a little - broader sound. I got the nickel silver, and it wasn't a single radius crook.

Walleye · Post by **Walleye** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:04 am

I've been trying to find a wider crook for my Bolero for two years. I've contacted MK Drawing as well as other providers and no one makes one. I just don't get it..

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:12 am

According to Bellend, one of the Bessons appears to have a fairly wide slide. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ide#p17066

This question has come up before. DJ Kennedy is the only answer. When I bought the one I had, it was $65 I think, and there was a choice of yellow or nickel silver. Maybe rose as well, I don't remember.

Maybe we could team up and give him a good sized order if a few of us went together. I know I want one. Anyone else?

tctb · Post by **tctb** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:32 am

I too have a problem with narrow slides . Would anyone be interested in compiling a list of various trombones and their slide width . Would it be better to measure the distance between the two outer slide tubes or the distance between the the two inner slide tubes?

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:04 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:12 am According to Bellend, one of the Bessons appears to have a fairly wide slide. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ide#p17066

This question has come up before. DJ Kennedy is the only answer. When I bought the one I had, it was $65 I think, and there was a choice of yellow or nickel silver. Maybe rose as well, I don't remember.

Maybe we could team up and give him a good sized order if a few of us went together. I know I want one. Anyone else?

I'd buy one if they were available, in nickel

Redthunder · Post by **Redthunder** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:25 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:12 am Maybe we could team up and give him a good sized order if a few of us went together. I know I want one. Anyone else?

Yes, I’d be interested in ordering one too.

TheBoneRanger · Post by **TheBoneRanger** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:36 pm

I got mine through Benn Hansson. My early 16M came up a treat.

Andrew

Walleye · Post by **Walleye** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:03 am

I would buy one in nickel if available..

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:00 am

DJK said these crooks were made specifically for him, and that the tooling was somehow involved in the Kanstul situation. I contacted him on Facebook. Maybe if some others also do the same he'll chase down the tool andget a few made.

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:56 am

I wonder if Butler would make something like that. Probably would be I'd imagine most techs aren't setup to install them!

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 am

I'm currently waiting on a custom wide slide crook for a 16M that is being made at BAC in Kansas.

I've asked for a nickel silver 0.522" I.D. same as the original ( all recent small Bach's use the model 6 slide crook) with the signature tight radius at each end but at the width of a 36 slide.

Not sure how it's gonna come out but I'll keep you posted when I eventually get it.
The trouble is adding a longer length of tube in the crook can send things out of wack a bit..... fingers crossed!

BellEnd

tctb · Post by **tctb** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 am

Thanks for ignoring me as usual . I don't think there is any point in staying with this group!

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:39 am

tctb wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 am Thanks for ignoring me as usual . I don't think there is any point in staying with this group!

Not ignoring you. Just haven't had a chance to measure my slides.

I think you need to describe what you consider "too narrow". A slide brace of about 2 1/2" length was considered pretty standard back in the 1930s.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:18 am

bellend wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 am I'm currently waiting on a custom wide slide crook for a 16M that is being made at BAC in Kansas.

I've asked for a nickel silver 0.522" I.D. same as the original ( all recent small Bach's use the model 6 slide crook) with the signature tight radius at each end but at the width of a 36 slide.

Not sure how it's gonna come out but I'll keep you posted when I eventually get it.
The trouble is adding a longer length of tube in the crook can send things out of wack a bit..... fingers crossed!

BellEnd

Well, BAC bought Kanstul's stuff, I'd bet that the tooling used is the tooling DJ is talking about. Bellend, you wouldn't mind telling us how much you are paying for this crook, would you? I paid $65 for a crook that appears to be from the same tool 3 years ago from DJ.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:09 pm

I'd be willing to compile a list of slide widths. Probably be good to measure inside to inside distance as well as outside to outside distance. I mean, if you're there already. I could list in fine English inches as well as metric. What's the best way to get the information, private message via trombonechat?

bimmerman · Post by **bimmerman** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:44 pm

Probably the easiest and most reproducible measurement is just the length of the inner slide brace from tube to tube. Add a tube diameter to that measurement if you really need center-on-center. Outside to Outside I don't see as that useful since that's just a function of inside spacing and slide tube OD--it's a derived value not a basic one. A ratio of slide width to slide length I think would be a more useful metric for anyone wanting to modify their horn, to preserve intonation.

I'll measure some slides when I get a chance-- have small bachs, kings, williams, medium/large edwards and yamahas currently. From memory though the Bachs = Kings = Williams (approx, all are close enough) << Yamaha YSL-641 < Edwards .525 and .547s.

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:58 pm

Here are some measurements. I measured the brace under the mouthpiece receiver. Measurements are in mm. Divide by 25.4 to get inches. I still have a couple to measure but they aren't here:

King 606: 70 mm
Conn Director 65 mm
Conn 40H (Ballroom, TIS): 75 mm
Martin Imperial: 70 mm (Committee is the same size)
Indiana Band Instrument (Martin) 70 mm
Bestler: 72 mm
Cecilio: 60 mm
Venus: 65 mm

I'll add more as I measure them.

Two more:

Holton Stratodyne (Model 67) 65 mm
Bach 36: 72 mm

Note: these are brace lengths. Center to center measurements will be larger.

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:58 pm

So based on those numbers, We're looking at a width greater than 80mm?

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:55 am

I measured as best I could some slide bows I have my vernier calipers are very old and might be a little bit out.

For me I need an I.D. of 80mm to comfortably get the mouthpiece on my chops.

I've copied and pasted this and the editor on here keeps bunching it all together hope it makes sense ?

Hand Slide Crook Dimension Chart

Model I.D. Crook Width I.D.

SelmerBolero 14.1mm /.555" 71.5mm/ 2.3/4"

16M 13.25 / .522" 68mm/ 2. 11/8"

Besson 941 13.3 / .520" 80mm/ 3 3/8"

Wide Glide 14mm / .551" 80.6mm/ 3 3/8"

BellEnd

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:01 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:18 am
bellend wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 am I'm currently waiting on a custom wide slide crook for a 16M that is being made at BAC in Kansas.

I've asked for a nickel silver 0.522" I.D. same as the original ( all recent small Bach's use the model 6 slide crook) with the signature tight radius at each end but at the width of a 36 slide.

Not sure how it's gonna come out but I'll keep you posted when I eventually get it.
The trouble is adding a longer length of tube in the crook can send things out of wack a bit..... fingers crossed!

BellEnd
Well, BAC bought Kanstul's stuff, I'd bet that the tooling used is the tooling DJ is talking about. Bellend, you wouldn't mind telling us how much you are paying for this crook, would you? I paid $65 for a crook that appears to be from the same tool 3 years ago from DJ.

Hi ,

I'm paying $355 which I know is a lot

but this will be a custom one off piece which means fabricating a former to make the specific shape I'm after.

Fingers crossed.

BellEnd

Walleye · Post by **Walleye** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:25 am

Measurements for a Bach 36 and Shires .525:
Bach 36: 81.27mm/ 3.2"
Shires .525: 79.1mm/3.12"

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:44 am

Bellend, thanks for sharing that. Even Brass Ark stuff is less than that. Of course for custom profile, I can see why they charge a lot. I hope they don't severely change what was originally charged for these crooks, though, assuming DJ is talking about the stuff that BAC acquired.

About the width measurements:

I measured outer slide tube outer diameter (the Olds is dual bore) and the tube-to-tube distance at the crook ferrules to make sure I wasn't measuring extra thicknesses like the little pieces the handle braces are soldered to or the oversleeves.

model bore OD(mm) tube-to-tube (mm and inch)
Kanstul 1662i .562 15.91 89.18 3.51
Olds S20 .554/.565 16.21/16.03 89.20 3.51
79h .522 14.91 82.26 3.24
72h .562 15.93 81.66 3.21
Conn sl4747 .547 15.5 78.44 3.09
Conn sl2525 .525 14.83 78.75 3.10
Shires MD+ .509 14.39 71.6 2.82

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:58 pm So based on those numbers, We're looking at a width greater than 80mm?

I'd like to see something about the width of my 79h, so the inside tube-to-tube dimension for that is ~82mm.

Does anyone have a 30h? That is one of the narrowest slides, or at least one of the least comfortable slides to play, I've found.

I think compiling these on google docs would be the best, so everybody can edit it, like a wiki. Did the mods say this site has wiki capabilities?

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:56 am

Thanks for those who have supplied measurements. The title reads "small bore bones" and I've gotten measurements for large bore as well. I'll include all I receive and post as I get an accumulation worth mentioning.

Again, I'll take any bore size slide measurements and hopefully this will be helpful to all.

Thanks again!

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:53 am

Just as an aside to this BAC have a Besson model 940 on Ebay at the moment.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Besson-BE940 ... SwftNck9yu

.500" bore horn, interchangeable leadpipes , and a wide slide (80mm between outer slide legs) straight out of the factory ! Bell is angled further away from the slide than on most horns .

This model was developed with Gene Smith who was lead with Woody Herman and is a great blowing horn, I've been playing on one for may be a year now and love it.

Similar in weight to a King 'Jiggs' 2B so you're not gonna' play Bruckner on it

but great alternative for jazz/ big band for those like me, who need the extra neck clearance.

Sadly Besson was going through the begging of the end when this horn came out so they're not that plentiful.

I really can't understand why no other manufacturer has gone down this route of a wider slide on small trombones as it's seems to be a problem for many people.

BellEnd

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:43 am

Well, I know one manufacturer that will offer it in the not too distant future...

☺

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:16 am

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:43 am Well, I know one manufacturer that will offer it in the not too distant future...

☺

That's great !

Do you hand bend stuff or are you blowing it?

BellEnd

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:48 am

We do have a Wiki but when we changed servers I forgot to move it as it was not utilized very much and I haven't had time to re-implement it. Its on my to-do list but we're fighting the spam issue. In the mean-time the best alternative to make sure it stays somewhere that is archived (which this site should be at places like archive.org), is to make a thread, which I've done here:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10924

If you post more measurements, I'll add them there as time permits.

I'm very excited to hear about M&W possibly offering these crooks too!

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am

bellend wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:01 am
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:18 am

Well, BAC bought Kanstul's stuff, I'd bet that the tooling used is the tooling DJ is talking about. Bellend, you wouldn't mind telling us how much you are paying for this crook, would you? I paid $65 for a crook that appears to be from the same tool 3 years ago from DJ.
Hi ,

I'm paying $355 which I know is a lot but this will be a custom one off piece which means fabricating a former to make the specific shape I'm after.

Fingers crossed.

BellEnd

Just a quick update , as of today I have cancelled my order with BAC as they just kept jerking me about.
Best American Craftsmen???

If that's the best there is, god help us......... f*****g useless !!!!!

BellEnd

BellEnd

TheSheriff · Post by **TheSheriff** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:30 am

Just a quick update , as of today I have cancelled my order with BAC as they just kept jerking me about.
Best American Craftsmen???

If that's the best there is, god help us......... f*****g useless !!!!!

BellEnd

BellEnd

======

Hardly. There's plenty of great American craftsmen in just about any field you can think of. And I imagine it's the same in your country too. As for BAC.........Well..........

======

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:43 am

I got a wide crook from Ben Hannson for a custom Shires .508 bore slide. He and DJ are the only people I've heard of who have them. So far. I don't know if Ben still makes them - this was several years ago for me.

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:50 am

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:43 am Well, I know one manufacturer that will offer it in the not too distant future...

☺

I remember mentioning my custom slide to you guys when my friend and I were checking out your excellent horns at Fort Myer earlier this year.

IMHO the same concern as others noted above also applies to alto trombones.

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:21 am

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:43 am I got a wide crook from Ben Hannson for a custom Shires .508 bore slide. He and DJ are the only people I've heard of who have them. So far. I don't know if Ben still makes them - this was several years ago for me.

I have one of those which were marketed as 'wide glide' bows, I got mine from DJ.

It is very nicely made and finished and it was also reasonably priced.

To my mind sadly the bore of it was too large which had a pretty big effect on the blow of most horns and not in a good way.

BellEnd

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:32 am

bellend wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:21 am
I have one of those which were marketed as 'wide glide' bows, I got mine from DJ.
...

BellEnd

So do you have one you might sell?

AndrewMeronek · Post by **AndrewMeronek** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:52 am

bellend wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:21 am I have one of those which were marketed as 'wide glide' bows, I got mine from DJ.

It is very nicely made and finished and it was also reasonably priced.

To my mind sadly the bore of it was too large which had a pretty big effect on the blow of most horns and not in a good way.

BellEnd

I really like how mine blows. More open than other small bore horns, so I feel more control over dynamics. I also get an interesting, different feeling control over tone in terms of having a small-bore 'bite' to articulation while still being able to 'warm up' the sound more like with larger bore horns. It's specifically a lightweight nickel-tube slide; specs in my profile. Without playing on other wide crooks, I can't say if that's the bore size or simply the change in crook shape.

Fidbone · Post by **Fidbone** » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:22 am

bellend wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am
bellend wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:01 am

Hi ,

I'm paying $355 which I know is a lot but this will be a custom one off piece which means fabricating a former to make the specific shape I'm after.

Fingers crossed.

BellEnd

Just a quick update , as of today I have cancelled my order with BAC as they just kept jerking me about.
Best American Craftsmen???

If that's the best there is, god help us......... f*****g useless !!!!!

BellEnd

BellEnd

I'm sure Tom at Rath's could make you one easily for much cheaper

BEC ...... Best English Craftsmen.

bellend · Post by **bellend** » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:32 am

Fidbone wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:22 am
bellend wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am

Just a quick update , as of today I have cancelled my order with BAC as they just kept jerking me about.
Best American Craftsmen???

If that's the best there is, god help us......... f*****g useless !!!!!

BellEnd

BellEnd

I'm sure Tom at Rath's could make you one easily for much cheaper

BEC ...... Best English Craftsmen.

Yes maybe he could, but none of my hard earned cash will ever go in that direction...................

Fidbone · Post by **Fidbone** » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:37 am

Your loss!

whitbey · Post by **whitbey** » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:27 am

When I bought my Edwards small bore I considered a wider slide. Edwards would have made it.

FEWeathers · Post by **FEWeathers** » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:01 am

Conn 30H slide width? It's about the same as an Olds Super slide.

Conn
30H: 2.54"
6H: 2.74"

Olds
Super: 2.52"
Standard: 2.53"
Recording: 2.80"

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:31 am

Conn 32h 2.60"

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:26 am

See, these are the type of specifications that trombone makers really DO need to put on their horns, but never really do. I don't have a HUGE neck, but it's not a small one either, and my King 3B is probably the narrowest horn I can play. I also need to hold the slide almost parallel to the floor, and angle the bell out a bit more.

Regarding measurements, I think maybe the distance between the outer slide tubes might be best. Some instruments have pretty beefy cork barrels, which can make the inner slide brass smaller than it would be otherwise. And with the outer slide brace, there are the oversleeves to think about, whether they are soldered on or drawn-in.

JBone · Post by **JBone** » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:29 pm

I'm confirming ~2.8 for Olds Recording. I actually wound up with 2.81.

For my part, I've got a pretty wide neck, at 19-19.5" depending on the shirt manufacturer, and the Olds is pretty comfortable. I might enjoy a tiny bit of extra space between the outers, but it's fine as it is.

Andre1966tr · Post by **Andre1966tr** » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:48 am

I play that Besson 940 with the wide slide (80mm), just like my Conn 78 and Yamaha 683G,width feels the same
I always had problems with narrow slides.
I used to bend my mouthpieces to a 15 degree angle, that helped.

But the Besson is so good playing and sounding for commercial/Jazz playing I sold my Kings, Raths and small Conns without hesitation.
I still wonder that they did not sell many of them (image problems?)..
This will be the last trombone I would sell if I had to (sorry for my grammar, hope you understand)
The slide is fast and the lead pipes really help to find a perfect blow.
I was told they were built in Germany by Kühnl and Hoyer or B&S...

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:29 am

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:48 am I play that Besson 940 with the wide slide (80mm), just like my Conn 78 and Yamaha 683G,width feels the same
I always had problems with narrow slides.

Yeah, that's what I was looking for. I was hoping it wouldn't be such an obscure (in the US anyway) horn. There are a couple here for sale, but it will cost me $1k to see how they play. I could customize an existing slide for that much.

Anyway, thanks for the info, it's useful to know there's something out there that plays well.